February 23rd, 2009

The Problematic Inward Vessel

photo credit: uma konappalli

The Book of Mormon is a compendium of ancient scripture written specifically for our day. Those whose writings it contains prophesied and warned of what would later come, and their words “cry from the dust” regarding what we should learn from what they witnessed and lived through. President Hinckley once spoke directly about the relevance of this book, prophetically declaring:

The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today’s society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems. (Gordon B. Hinckley, via Quoty)

The problems of today’s society it touches upon are not relegated only to the basic ideas we commonly discuss (e.g. pride, morality, love, obedience, etc.). Having reviewed the entire record prepared specifically for us, Moroni discussed a problem of our society that is the largest threat to the integrity of our nation and Church:

And they [the secret combinations] have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking [the Jaredites], and also the destruction of the people of Nephi. (Ether 8:21)

A few verses later, Moroni issues a bold and direct admonition from the Lord, warning us in very plain language that when (not if) we see secret combinations rising in power among us, we are expressly commanded by the Lord to “awake to a sense of [our] awful situation”—in other words, become aware and informed of the threats around us so as to not be deceitfully led down a path we should not travel.

Moroni’s observation of the destructive nature of such combinations was not a simple reflection at the end of a long historical summary. Instead, it was intentional, and sheds important light on why the stories we read were selected from the vast annals available to him and his father. Indeed, Mormon had previously declared his intent of illustrating with these selected passages how this threat caused the destruction of his people. No other teaching in the Book of Mormon has been so completely sidestepped by the Latter-day Saints as this one. We ignore its modern-day implications and warnings at our own peril.

You see, the inward vessel has always been our achilles heel. Whether referring to our once-great nation or our Church, the only possible threat of destruction has always been from within. A strong, united group is more easily defeated through a rotting core than an outward assault. Captain Moroni recognized this, and a quote attributed to Cicero puts it this way:

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself.

For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.

Or, to paraphrase Cassius in Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar, the problem is not in the stars, but in ourselves. We hold the keys both to our success and our demise, and it is we who decide our fate. No enemy can overtake a righteous people.

Missing the key indicators of this situation, many people seem to suffer through what are called the “war chapters” in the Book of Mormon. These stories, however, are part of a larger lesson about what threats we face in our day, conveyed through one example after another. King Mosiah, after a series of righteous kings (“benevolent dictators”, if you will), terminated the monarchy and organized a decentralized system of government comprised of judges chosen locally by the people of Nephi. This new government was a sort of theocratic judiciary, where judges were elected and/or confirmed by referendum, and the law was established through revelation and religious precedent. What matters, though, is that the people were finally allowed to govern themselves.

Now in control of their political destiny, things really start to heat up. What was before a relatively peaceful existence under a monarchy turned into a story of turbulence and violence. From the time that the reign of the judges was established to Christ’s post-resurrection arrival, there are fifteen major war campaigns recorded in the Book of Mormon. There may have been other wars either not recorded by the original authors or not preserved in Mormon’s historical compendium, but we are presented with fifteen examples of Nephite warfare.

Why are these wars important? What are we to learn from the continual conflict presented in what is otherwise an enjoyable, spiritually uplifting piece of literature? The answer lies in the common thread among all fifteen of these wars. Disproving the misguided myth that the wicked Lamanites were always attacking the innocent Nephites, the historical record offered in the Book of Mormon clearly shows that all fifteen of the major wars during this time were instigated and incited by dissenting Nephites.

The following list details each of the wars and who was to blame for starting them (research credit and my thanks go to J. Crawford Smith):

  1. Instigated by Amlici in the 5th year of the judges (YofJ) (Alma 2)
  2. People of Ammonihah, 10th YofJ (Alma 8:3, 9, 16; Alma 10:27-32; Alma 16:1-11; Alma 25:1-8; Alma 49:3)
  3. Amalekites, 14th YofJ (Alma 21:3-6; Alma 23:7-14; Alma 24; Alma 27:1-3)
  4. Zoramites, 18th YofJ (Alma 31:8; Alma 43:3-17)
  5. Amalickiah, 19th-25th YofJ (Alma 46, 47, 48, 49; Alma 51:9-12, 22-37)
  6. Morianton, 24th YofJ (Alma 50:25-35)
  7. Kingmen, 25th YofJ (Alma 51:8, 15-21; Alma 60:14-18)
  8. Ammoron, 28th-30th YofJ (Alma 52:19-20, 33-36; Alma 59:7; Alma 62:33-36)
  9. Pachus (Alma 61:3-20; Alma 62:1-11)
  10. Nephite dissenters, 39th YofJ (Alma 63:10-15)
  11. Coriantumr and Tubaloth, 41st YofJ (Helaman 1)
  12. Wealthy Nephites, 54th-61st YofJ (Helaman 4)
  13. Gadianton Robbers, 71st-73rd YofJ, (Helaman 10:18-19; Helaman 11:1-10)
  14. Dissenters and Gadianton Robbers, 80th YofJ (Helaman 11:21-26)
  15. Giddianhi, 93rd-110th YofJ (3 Nephi 1:27; 3 Nephi 2, 3, 4)

Time and time again, individuals and groups from within the Nephite nation aspired for power, and when they couldn’t obtain it by force or persuasion, broke away from the group and through various means incited the Lamanites to riot and war against them. In light of the view these details present, the reader soon learns that the Lamanites in many cases were mere pawns in a war of propaganda, corralled and controlled by power-seeking authoritarians. Many of the examples above explain in specific detail the deceit and propaganda used to sway an otherwise neutral Lamanite populace. In one story, the reader is shown how the Lamanites actively resisted an attempt to be used as tools in a war they did not want to fight. Fear for their lives and more deceit finally turned them into willing accomplices.

If the descriptions of these events truly are “as current as the morning newspaper,” then we better pay closer attention to the details and lessons that literally leap from the page once you fixate on them. The propaganda of our day is a masterful sleight of hand—painting cave-dwellers as boogie men and greedy investors as financial terrorists. But the story to be told from Mormon’s inclusion of these wars is that our threats are no different than those his country faced. He and his son tell us in no uncertain terms that the conspirators tied together with their common philosophy caused the destruction of two entire societies, and issue a clarion call at the end of their record nearly begging us to pay attention and learn from past mistakes.

But given the public’s acceptance of a constant and massive media campaign to heighten our alarm and saturate our lives with fear, it would seem that the propaganda has been successful. The Book of Mormon points the finger at the real threats to our country and Church, yet it seems that the majority of Sunday School teachers try their very hardest to find a way to ignore the issue of secret combinations and treason altogether.

This then begs the question: what’s the point of having a guidebook if we don’t follow its instructions? For all the effort that Mormon and Moroni put into their magnum opus, their most direct and fervent exhortations seem to fall on deaf ears. “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” said George Santayana. Perhaps that explains why the Lord says we’re still under condemnation for not paying attention to what’s in the Book of Mormon.

Propaganda and deceit are powerful tools of misdirection. Where successful, they distract their target from reality and distort perceived truth. Our future both as a nation and as a Church depends in large measure upon knowing what our real threats are. The Book of Mormon tells us in plain language—and through repeated examples—that our biggest threats are amongst us.

43 Responses to “The Problematic Inward Vessel”

  1. Inthedoghouse
    February 23, 2009 at 10:50 am #

    Another great post with loads of insights. The early saints faced persecution as well because of those from within. This is a persistent message that we see throughout all LDS History. We need to recognize it not only from the media and government, but also from within the ranks of the Church as well.

  2. David
    February 23, 2009 at 11:17 am #

    Overall your message is highly needed. We do need to recognize the benefit of the message of “the war chapters.” We do ourselves a spiritual disservice if we view them as simply history recorded in a sacred text. On the other hand, I think you misrepresent the situation of Mosiah and the effect of the change of government he instituted.

    King Mosiah, after a long line of righteous kings (”benevolent dictators”, if you will), terminated the monarchy and organized a decentralized system of government comprised of judges chosen locally by the people of Nephi.

    Mosiah was the third righteous king in succession to the people in the land of Zerahemla. Three in a row is probably long for a succession of righteous kings, but I don’t think we can say that the turbulence after the change was any worse than the turbulence before the change. Benjamin had to work hard to counter the many “false Christs . . . false prophets, and false preachers and teachers among the people, and . . . much contention and many dissensions away unto the Lamanites.” We have no indication of how righteous or not the kings were prior to the departure of his grandfather, Mosiah I, from the land of Nephi except that Mosiah was commanded to flee the land of Nephi because the people there were not listening to the Lord generally.

    You seem to suggest that the new form of government brought turbulence. I think it would be more accurate to say that it exposed the social turbulence that had previously been masked by the fact that there was no system of relatively static laws because the law had always been based on the character of whatever king was ruling at the time.

    Remember that Mosiah suggested that the example of Zeniff-Noah-Limhi was the pattern of a system of kings. That is, the society changed dramatically with the change in their leaders. The people were vaguely righteous under Zeniff, grossly wicked under Noah, and returning to righteousness under Limhi.

    It is no coincidence that the system set up by Mosiah is the same as the system designed by our founder – where the legal system is not dependent on the person or people in power at any given time so much as it is dependent on the existing law and the will of the people.

  3. Connor
    February 23, 2009 at 11:26 am #

    Great points, David. I agree, and have amended my post accordingly (changing “long line” to “series”). Thanks for the insight.

    As per the peace enjoyed under one form of government versus the other, this paper has some interesting information. I think that the Nephites did enjoy greater peace under the righteous kings, but having read the Jaredite record and understanding how that power can easily be abused by less worthy characters, he pushed the power down to the people instead.

  4. LDSLiberty
    February 23, 2009 at 1:26 pm #

    Connor, Excellent reminder that we need to be ever vigilant against the threats within our own nation – most specifically those seeking for power over us.

  5. Rick
    February 23, 2009 at 1:39 pm #

    In our day who are the secret combinations? In the Book of Mormon they were real people. I guess we don’t know and that is why they are called “secret” combinations.

  6. Carborendum
    February 23, 2009 at 2:05 pm #


    I agree with your premise. I agree with your conclusion. I am, however, having difficulty connecting the two. The problem lies in playing the “who’s who” game.

    If we believe the Nephites are analogous to our country (or even the free nations of the world) then the Lamanites would be: communism, socialism, and Islamic terrorists?

    So, who are the Nephite defectors? Communists and socialists in our country do not fit the profile you cited (as deceitful traitors). Maybe they were in previous generations, but they don’t have to deceive anymore. They are very open about it today. Our own government would then take the role of the “inciters” where terrorists are involved. But that doesn’t fit either.

    You stated that our media and government are inciting us to panic. But against whom? They are not from other countries (don’t bring up Obama’s BC again). And if they were, we’d be taking on the role of the Lamanites. See my problem? I recognize the roles in the early days of the Church as inthedoghouse noted. But I’m having difficulty with today.

    Do you have another interpretation of roles?

  7. David
    February 23, 2009 at 2:43 pm #

    I absolutely agree Connor that under the righteous kings they likely had greater peace (we have few details to confirm that) but the Jaredite record is more indicative of society under a succession of kings.

  8. Kelly W.
    February 23, 2009 at 5:37 pm #

    Connor, I happen to believe your post was brilliant.

    I had an experience a few short years ago with a member of the Stake Presidency who believed the Book of Mormon was as current as our morning newspaper, and he stated as much by saying Bush was doing in Iraq exactly what Captain Moroni did with his Title of Liberty. I spoke back directly to his face and said he was wrong. He, like a good member of the Stake Presidency quickly changed the subject so as not to invite himself to contention. Showed me how successful the propaganda is.

    Last year as we studied the B of M, the lesson manual split the book of Ether into two lessons. Lesson 45 covered the Brother of Jared’s experience, and Lesson 46 covered Chapter 12 and faith. If you look hard, you see in the back of the lesson, AFTER the conclusion to the lesson, is a short segment titled “Additional teaching ideas.” There were 3 ideas mentioned, 1) The importance of following the prophets, 2) Moroni warns against secret combinations and 3) Because thou has seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong.

    So, to be fair, the Book of Mormon teaching manual DID include a brief mention of secret combinations, but it seemed to try its very hardest to hide it on the last page under the additional teaching ideas.

    The thought that “our great US of A might could be brought down by secret combinations is not even considered by the LDS in Utah. All is well in Zion, because, as the Stake Presidency proclaims, Bush only did what Captain Moroni did.

  9. Reach Upward
    February 23, 2009 at 6:13 pm #

    I’m with David. A careful reading of the scanty information between Nephi and Mosiah I suggests fairly continuous strife, including internal strife. Most of the conflicts in the first few decades after Mosiah II’s change in the system of government revolved around contests over popular rule vs. elitist rule: republic vs. oligarchy. Eventually it fell apart when the oligarchists succeeded in destroying trust in the republican system, but fell short of enforcing a single oligarchy on the whole populace.

    It is also instructive to note that for a long time, even righteous rulers were unaware of the extent of gadianton influence. Eventually, however, people began to embrace gadiantonism. I don’t know; maybe they were doing home recruiting parties like multi-level marketing, or something. Somehow, Nephi (son of Helaman II) left leadership (or was deposed) without being killed. It took near destruction for the general populace to reject gadiantonism.

    Maybe we should ask, what is gadiantonism? Relying on plunder, ideally, government sanctioned plunder. Go figure.

  10. J. Crawford Smith
    February 23, 2009 at 8:23 pm #

    David: The difference between Kings and a Republic

    In brief, it’s the difference between the Davidic Covenant and the Sinai Covenant. Under the Davidic, Israel is protected when her King is righteous. Under the Sinai Covenant (like America today and Nephites during their republic) the voice of the people causes God’s covenant of protection to be “to a man.” All of us must be righteous or we are all punished. Kind of harsh but you’ll recall when one man in Israel brought back war boottie, the entire nation was punished.

    Carborendum: If we believe the Nephites are analogous to our country (or even the free nations of the world) then the Lamanites would be: communism, socialism, and Islamic terrorists?

    Americans and Nephites have 4 VERY important things in common.
    1. Separation of Church and State
    2. Voice of the People makes the laws
    3. A Prophet living in their country
    4. The “fullness of the Gospel.”
    No other nations that I can think of have had that.
    Who do the Lamanites represent today? Themselves. As Connor pointed out, the Lamanites in and of themselves were NEVER the issue during the Nephite Republic….ONLY Traitor Nephites. 100% of the time. Who are those traitors today in America? The same men they were amongst the Nephites…the Rich Elite that thought they had a right to rule all others, AKA Gadiantons, Lawyers and Judges that control the masses. Although we seldom if ever speak of it a careful reading of the verses I provided Connor shows A LOT of class warfare.

    Kelly: Bush and Capt Moroni

    Concur! What a joke! Wish I’d been there when your Stake Pres made those un-scripturally based comments! First of all Captain Moroni did NOT raise the banner of Liberty and rush into enemy lines, nor into the caves the enemy was hiding in! Just the opposite. He left the frontier with the Lamanites and turned inward to Zarahemla where the political insurrection by Traitor Nephites (Kingmen) had taken place. I’m waiting anxiously for a new Captain Moroni to lead us to D.C. to oust the Kingmen…in both parties!

    PS: And just to make sure the “Terrorist” are the “Gadiantons” fluff does not surface, I’ll take a second and explain why I, as a Marine Officer, changed my mind about the US Military. When Bush wanted to take us into a clearly offensive war, 3 Nephi 3:18-21 kept ringing in my ears. The Gadiantons had both the Lamanites (the “bad guys” in Sunday School) and the Nephites (the “good guys” in Sunday School) surrounded. These Lamanites and Nephites ask their prophet if they can attack the Gadiantons..and God’s reply,….Sorry, “The Lord Forbid.”

    Connor: Back to the point we took off line, and semi related to David’s question about Kings and Republics. The issue isn’t, in my mind, which period had more peace, prosperity, or security per se. But to whom do we the people look for our guidance. I enjoyed the quote you sent by Harold B. Lee where he told us to wait for the prophet’s warning before we flee Babylon. That said, a closer look at the Book of Mormon will show us that under righteous kings (Nephi, Mosiah, Limhi etc.) the people were protected and when the message came to “flee” before impending destruction it came from the King.

    BUT, in contrast during the Nephite Republic, NO such warning or command is EVER given. In fact the prophets during that period seem to do what the prophets today do…cry repentance, not conspiracy, much less, “time to get our of Dodge as a people.” Also note during this period two of the major prophets, Alma and Nephi Sr. just up and disappear. (See Alma 45 and 46 where Alma after telling his son Helaman a “secret” that some of the “Nephites” would no longer be counted among the “Nephites” because they would sneak away. After this last msg. Alma just sneaks away himself. Also see 3N1:2-3 where Nephi “departs out of the land” and “whither he went, no man knoweth.” This JUST before the Gadiantons take control of both the Nephite and Lamanite nations. Yet we know the “Righteous Branch” must have been “preserved” as promised, so I’d guess they left in the exodus spoken of in Alma 63 and Hel 3. Yet we have NO recorded warning by the acting Prophet that such a flight was taken under prophetic warning per se.

  11. Curtis
    February 23, 2009 at 10:04 pm #

    D&C 112:

    24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
    25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
    26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

    or JST Matthew 21:47-56:

    47 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
    48 And they said among themselves, Shall this man think that he alone can spoil this great kingdom? And they were angry with him.
    49 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they learned that the multitude took him for a prophet.
    50 And now his disciples came to him, and Jesus said unto them, Marvel ye at the words of the parable which I spake unto them?
    51 Verily, I say unto you, I am the stone, and those wicked ones reject me.
    52 I am the head of the corner. These Jews shall fall upon me, and shall be broken.
    53 And the kingdom of God shall be taken from them, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof; (meaning the Gentiles.)
    54 Wherefore, on whomsoever this stone shall fall, it shall grind him to powder.
    55 And when the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, he will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let again his vineyard unto other husbandmen, even in the last days, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
    56 And then understood they the parable which he spake unto them, that the Gentiles should be destroyed also, when the Lord should descend out of heaven to reign in his vineyard, which is the earth and the inhabitants thereof.

  12. Connor
    February 23, 2009 at 10:11 pm #


    In our day who are the secret combinations?

    The million dollar question. Chuck Baldwin talks about some of the basics here and here—a good starting point for learning about some of the rich, powerful men actively working to undermine our system of government, just as Elder Wirthlin said.


    Do you have another interpretation of roles?

    See my comment to Rick.


    I likewise reviewed the Gospel Doctrine manual for the section of Ether that covers these warnings, and was sad to see it treated so lightly, almost to the point of ignoring it completely. I was out of town for the Sunday it was taught… otherwise my ward would have no doubt gotten an earful from me. 🙂


    Maybe we should ask, what is gadiantonism? Relying on plunder, ideally, government sanctioned plunder. Go figure.

    Hmm, this sound familiar…

    J. Crawford,

    The issue isn’t, in my mind, which period had more peace, prosperity, or security per se.

    Agreed. In the quote from Cicero I pointed out, he talks about two threats: the visible, and the invisible. Even without secret combinations and treason, it’s likely that you’ll have enemies attacking you. But these are easily seen and dealt with. Far more insidious (and effective) are the traitors actively working within the system to corrode and ultimately undermine it. I don’t know that this world has ever seen more than a couple years of peace at any given time. To your point, the better question is who do we trust? Our mortal leaders (when these positions of authority can be filled by people abusing the power and duping the people), or God?

  13. J. Crawford Smith
    February 23, 2009 at 10:37 pm #

    The Gospel Doctrine class I’d like to see given properly in the USA is 3 Nephi 16, 20, 21, 22. Now that would be fun.

  14. Carborendum
    February 23, 2009 at 11:17 pm #


    I don’t think you read my post very clearly, nor Connor’s. We are talking about parallels between the Book of Mormon and America of today (and partially the Church today and the Church of BoM times). Context. Context.

    If you say the Lamanites represent the Lamanites, then you are saying that there have been people who come from mainstream America into the tribal lands and incite them to revolt against America. I haven’t seen much of that in the past 100 years. What are you saying?

    Connor, I think I’ve answered my own question thusly:

    1) In the early stages (examples 1-12) dissenters went from the Nephites to the Lamanites to stir them up. These were NOT Gadiantons. This was a pretty big sidebar if your point was that the Gadiantons are what we need to look out for. That is what confused me. Notice the references 12 dissenters, 3 Gadiantons.

    2) Gadiantons only become a problem later on (examples 13-15). But they don’t stir up the Lamanites. They hate everyone equally. They “perform their works of darkness” among both the Lamanites as well as the Nephites. Although more Lamanites tend to join them because fewer have the gospel until Helaman 11:21. Then I believe it implies that the Gadiantons received numbers from both nations equally. I would suppose per capita since the Lamanites were more numerous.

    Here is how I see it:

    Stage 1: Wars instigated by Nephite dissenters who defected to the Lamanites incited them to violence. Nephites fight back, repent, and are victorious. Everyone goes back to business as usual. Simple pride-prosperity cycle. This is merely the wars and strife this nation has known since it’s founding.

    Stage 2: Gadiantons cause problems for the Nephites. Bad things happen. Nephites repent. Gadiantons are extinguished. Business as usual. Partially the pride prosperity cycle. But it is much harder because the Gadiantons are so bad that it only takes a few to wreak havoc on a whole nation. This goes back to the enemy at the gates vs. the traitor. I believe it started around the mid 1800s.

    Stage 3: Gadiantons get so powerful that even though the Nephites and Lamanites have now made friends they are unable to extinguish the Gadiantons. In fact, they cause all manner of suffering for both the Nephites and the Lamanites. I believe this started in the early 1900s.

    Stage 4: Gadiantons preaching is more readily accepted by the people than the word of God. Thus the mainstream falls into idolatry and moral decay. I believe this sparked in the 1950s and really took off in the 60s.

    Stage 5: A complete abandonment of righteous principles and whole-hearted acceptance of that which is evil in the name of individual liberty and freedom of expression. Today, we call that multi-culturalism and moral relativism. This began in the 80s and really took off in the 90s.

    Stage 6: Those who adhere to these principles (most of them Gadiantons themselves) will take control of the government & media. This has been growing for the greater part of the last century.

    Stage 7: THE AGENDA IN ACTION. Today.

    A) Sideline those who believe in God (you know like Daniel does on a regular basis here).
    B) Get more people to disbelieve the Judeo-Christian God than who believe.
    C) Replace “Separation-of-Church-and-State” with an atheist republic.
    D) Degrade the morality of the people because only a moral and religious people can be ruled by a free government.

    Gee, I guess we really are pretty far along the timeline.

    E) Declare good, evil and evil, good by making those who believe in righteous principles seem naive at best and sinister at worst.
    F) Institute laws which will make it more and more difficult to live a righteous life.
    G) Make believing in Christ punishable by death.

    At this point many prayers are made pleading with the Lord to save the people. God steps in and spares the people. The nation of Zion is built which waxes great, but is still held back by the very powerful Gadianton nation(s) until Christ Comes to establish an era of peace and prosperity (the Millenium). Then the final battle occurs after the millenium and the world dies only to be resurrected (renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory).

  15. Carborendum
    February 23, 2009 at 11:21 pm #

    Ok. I can breathe now.

  16. J. Crawford Smith
    February 24, 2009 at 7:52 am #

    Carborendum: What I meant by the Lamanites are the Lamanites is in the end it is Lehi’s seed that “tramples under foot” the “Gentiles” that have “come upon the face of this land and scattered by people” AKA the USA the “mighty Gentile nation.” (3N16:8-16; 3N20:14-20; 3N21:12-21) Agree, as of today Lehi’s seed has NOT come to battle with the Americans. The points I get from these parallel histories is that Nephite wars were started by Internal Nephite Traitors. (Jackson provoked the Indians in Florida; Lincoln accused Polk of starting the war with Mexico to justify a war, some evidence exists to show that the US and GB sent a civilian ship full of J.P. Morgan’s shells into an area where they new UBoats were located so it would get hit, WWII Hitler was funded initially by two of George Bush’s grandparents and we let Pearl Harbor get hit, 9/11 etc.)

    Back to who destroys America “suddenly” “in a day” “in an hour” AKA “Babylon the Great, the Mother of all Harlots?” (Rev 17, 18). For John it is “The Beast” which he defines as the world’s “8th empire.” Babylon the Great being the “7th Empire.” For Isaiah it is “Assyria” (Isa 10, 13-24, 47 etc.) I believe Assyria and “The Beast” are the same world superpower, and her allies. My guess, Russia and a conglomerate of 10 other nations (Rev 17) which finally get so upset with the USA that they attack her “in a day,” “in an hour” with nukes. (Rev 18)

    Speculation: If Russia (or any other nation with Nukes) drops a few on say D.C., NYC, and L.A. simultaneously. (There are some NOT well documented quotes “attributed” to Joseph Smith which indicate the Russians will hit the East Coast and the Chinese the West Coast simultaneously) what happens? The USA goes into sudden economic turmoil. We have no “crank back” systems in place…i.e. we are 100% dependent on our “critical infrastructures” like water, electrical grid, financial markets etc. Since 97% of American’s live in cities (Isaiah calls it “joining field to field until there is no space left”) most will starve in a matter of 3 months. But in Mexico south to Argentina roughly 75% – 85% of their populations still live on sustainable farms or in communities who’s economies depend on sustainable farms.

    Take Mexico, where I live, as a case in point. 100M Mexicans. Mexico City, Guadalajara, Monterey, Puebla, Aguas Calientes, etc. Suffer the same craziness going on in the USA do to their economic dependence on the Empire to the North. (About 30M Mexicans). But 70M, which live on sustainable farms, have their own wells, chickens, black beans, corn, and live without electricity 50% of the time anyhow….for them life is “business as usual” (Except that Assyria will have taken over the entire world and will be trying to impose its economic system – communism – upon everyone by force. But this only lasts 3 ½ years to 4 years before Zion finally triumphs over Assyria.) Thus, after the USA becomes “desolate” the Latins are free to walk back to Jackson County undisturbed – or do we kid ourselves into thinking the current inhabitants of Kansas City will just hand us their deeds voluntarily – and “trample underfoot the homes of the “Gentiles.” (See 3N16:15; 3N21:13-20; Isa. 5:9; 6:11; contrasted with 54:3; 61:4 and 62:4) You’ll also note in 61:1-4 a hint of stepping upon the ashes of those who were destroyed.

    Compare my thought process with D&C 101:42-65 and you’ll note that “The Servant” calls his army to fight “the enemy” AKA Assyria or The Beast from among the Saints that are NOT living in the “choice vineyard” to go and redeem the “choice vineyard” AFTER said vineyard is destroyed by the “enemy.” Remember my friend, of the ten virgins invited to the wedding, only 50% get in…and currently about 50% of the church lives outside the boundaries of the “choice vineyard.”

  17. Clumpy
    February 24, 2009 at 7:22 pm #

    I’m of the mind that a “secret combination” must fit a few basic characteristics:

    1) They must work within a given system and profess belief in the same ideals and norms of the society in which they work.

    2) They must subvert these values and beliefs by attempting to change society through dishonest methods (i.e. illegal methods) for the purposes of personal gain.

    Thus corporate leaders who give lip service to free market values and competition while intertwining themselves with government for the benefit of their company are conspirators in a very specific sense and possibly traitors in a more general sense.

    Advocates of socialism, militarism or any other “-ism” not sanctioned by our law are members of secret combinations if they profess belief in our Constitutional structure but work outside the structure for their own ends (i.e. abusing Constitutional language rather than working through constitutional amendments to grant government the powers they seek).

    I think Connor would agree with me that most of these conspirators don’t feel themselves to be enemies of the country, and that most are not necessarily evil, yet they do a great deal of damage.

  18. Carborendum
    February 24, 2009 at 9:17 pm #


    I agree with most of what you say. But I would strike the statement “most are not necessarily evil”. I suppose we’d have to start defining terms.


    1) I’ve never heard that Bush’s grandparents funded Hitler. That’s a new one for me. If I verify it, I’ll thank you. If I can’t, I’ll roll my eyes at you. That’s right! Take that ye who believe everything at face value. Maybe you can provide a link?
    2) What does WWII and 9/11 have to do with Lamanites?
    3) Nice mixing of the Biblical prophecies with BoM analogies. It will take a while for me to process before I accept it of course. But I’ll definitely look at it. So, thank you for the food for thought.
    4) After all we’ve been through and all we’ve read in history, I don’t believe that we will fall by the sword (although it is possible). Remember that the Russians and the Chinese both have economies that are much stronger than ours. And they have government systems and a population that are much more suited to communism than ours.

    All they need to do is call in all of our treasury bonds. We will be insolvent — instantly. Secretary Clinton says that we are in a co-dependent relationship. Therefore, China knows they will crumble if we do. I’ve looked at some numbers that indicate otherwise. The Chinese have money and to spare. Our country barely has any net worth. We are the wealthiest nation on earth until you subtract all our debt. Then we have almost nothing (yes, we actually do have something left over–but very little). Other countries (like Great Britain) are far in the negative.

    It would be great if we could fine tune all this information to determine what we should do in the next month or year. But all we can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

  19. J. Crawford Smith
    February 24, 2009 at 10:27 pm #


    All I did was google Herbert Walker Bush funding of wwii hitler and got the following. I have NOT read these links…but I have read about both of George’s grandparents starting what today is the CIA and funding Hitler before.


    The last link is authored by Webster G. Tarpley…I’ve met him and believe it was he that first told me about the Bush/Hitler connection.


  20. J. Crawford Smith
    February 24, 2009 at 11:27 pm #

    Dear Carborendum,

    You keep going back to the Lamanites, “What does WWII and 9/11 have to do with the Lamanites.” I don’t care as much about the Lamanites as I do the Nephites…the Nephites represent US. Read the next few sentences as a Joke, not as bitter sarcasm…please, I don’t want to contend. OK Sunday School class repeat after me (a la Animal Farm: “2 legs bad, 4 legs good”) “Lamanites Bad, Nephites Good; Lamanites Bad, Nephites Good.

    I think we often ask the wrong questions, like “Who do the Lamanites represent?” Instead of questions like: “What caused the Nephite nation’s downfall?” or “Who caused the Nephite Republic’s wars?” (In my opinion the “real Lamanites” those that descended from Laman, Lemuel and Ismael’s sons were NOT the issue, but instead the “Nephite Traitor Lamanites” – Amalikites, Ammuronites, Zoramites, Kingmen, Gadiantons etc.

    A mental problem we have is that Mormon, as the compiler, lumps everyone into two groups, Lamanites and Nephites, for ease and continuity. Even the Nephite Traitors the DAY they make an alliance with the “Nephite Traitor Lamanite” leaders are thus called “Lamanites” too.

    The real Lamanites “represent,” to answer the question you pose, the poor slobs that got suckered into war by the Nephite Traitor Lamanites. (Note the entire chapter of Alma 47 is the story of over 50% of the entire real Lamanite nation leaving their country and appointing a new king that refuses to go to war with the Nephites. But alas in Alma 48:1 the Nephite Traitor Lamanite the becomes king of the Lamanites hires men and builds towers with the sole purpose of spewing out propaganda to encite the real Lamanites to anger and war.)

    Lamanites Bad, Nephites Good” you chant, “Although more Lamanites tend to join them [the Gadiantons] because fewer have the gospel.” Yet you claim, accurately, we should focus on “partially the Church today and the Church of BoM times.” Let’s examine the text and not the Sunday School myths.

    First Myth: “Lamanites Bad, Nephites Good”
    Jacob 3:5 3 But, wo, wo, unto you [Nephites] that are not pure in heart, that are filthy this day before God; for except ye repent the land is cursed for your sakes; and the Lamanites, which are not filthy like unto you, nevertheless they are cursed with a sore cursing, [the lack of the Everlasting Covenant of the Priesthood due to their parent’s wickedness] shall scourge you even unto destruction. 4 And the time speedily cometh, that except ye [Nephites] repent they shall possess the land of your inheritance, and the Lord God will lead away the righteous out from among you. (the last 8 words were for you Connor)
    5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you;

    Alma 47, 48. as just mentioned.

    Who lays down their lives, instead of taking up arms? Lamanites.

    When their own people, lead by Nephite Traitors, come against them who’s hearts are softened? Lamanites. Who continues to kill defenseless people? Nephite Traitors.

    Hel 6: 21 But behold, Satan did stir up the hearts of the more part [i.e. greater than 50%] of the Nephites, insomuch that they did unite with those bands of robbers, and did enter into their covenants and their oaths, that they would protect and preserve one another in whatsoever difficult circumstances they should be placed, that they should not suffer for their murders, and their plunderings, and their stealings.
    22 And it came to pass that they did have their signs, yea, their secret signs, and their secret words; and this that they might distinguish a brother who had entered into the covenant, that whatsoever wickedness his brother should do he should not be injured by his brother, nor by those who did belong to his band, who had taken this covenant. 23 And thus they might murder, and plunder, and steal, and commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness, contrary to the laws of their country and also the laws of their God.

    Hel 6:35 And thus we see that the Spirit of the Lord began to withdraw from the Nephites, because of the wickedness and the hardness of their hearts. 36 And thus we see that the Lord began to pour out his Spirit upon the Lamanites, because of their easiness and willingness to believe in his words. 37 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did hunt the band of robbers of Gadianton; [and killed them…oops another myth] and they did preach the word of God among the more wicked part of them, insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the Lamanites. [oh but wait, this destroys the “more Lamanites tend to join them [the Gadiantons] because fewer have the gospel” myth I was taught in Sunday School]

    38 And it came to pass on the other hand, that the Nephites [which had the “fulness of the Gospel] did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, [“Nephites good” so much for that myth] and had seduced the more part of the righteous [or should we say, those that pretended to be “righteous?”] until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations. 39 And thus they did obtain the sole management of the government, [among the Nephites, since the “wicked Lamanites” got rid of the Gadiantons by preaching to them.] insomuch that they did trample under their feet and smite and rend and turn their backs upon the poor and the meek, and the humble followers of God.

    I don’t focus on the Lamanites when looking for the “bad guys.” …I focus on the Nephites. Where much light is given much is expected.

    To your comment on the Church:
    Hel 3:33And in the fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into the church–not into the church of God, but into the hearts of the people who professed to belong to the church of God–

    Hel 4: AND it came to pass in the fifty and fourth year there were many dissensions in the church, and there was also a contention among the people, insomuch that there was much bloodshed. 2 And the rebellious part were slain and driven out of the land, and they did go unto the king of the Lamanites.
    Hel 4:3
    3 And it came to pass that they [the Nephite Traitors] did endeavor to stir up the Lamanites to war against the Nephites; but behold, the Lamanites were exceedingly afraid, insomuch that they would not hearken to the words of those dissenters. [But the myth in my mind holds that the Lamanites were blood thirsty wicked people always looking for a war.]

    4 But it came to pass in the fifty and sixth year of the reign of the judges, there were [more Nephite] dissenters who went up from the Nephites unto the Lamanites; and they succeeded with those others in stirring them up to anger against the Nephites; [propaganda works on the sheeple every time….”This is your enemy…you must hate them.”] and they were all that year preparing for war.

    8 And thus those dissenters of the Nephites, with the help of a numerous army of the Lamanites, had obtained all the possession of the Nephites which was in the land southward. And all this was done in the fifty and eighth and ninth years of the reign of the judges.

    11 Now this great loss of the Nephites, and the great slaughter which was among them, would not have happened had it not been for their wickedness and their abomination which was among them; [But wait, the Myth says it was the Lamanites fault!] yea, and it was among those also who professed to belong to the church of God. [No comment needed!]

    12 And it was because of the pride of their hearts, because of their exceeding riches, yea, it was because of their oppression to the poor, withholding their food from the hungry, withholding their clothing from the naked, (See Isa. 1:15-22) and smiting their humble brethren upon the cheek, making a mock of that which was sacred, [like life itself…but murder is OK if the Marines to it for us and besides, they are only killing “rag heads.”] denying the spirit of prophecy and of revelation, murdering, plundering, lying, stealing, committing adultery, rising up in great contentions, and deserting away into the land of Nephi, among the Lamanites— (Compare this to 3N16:10)

    13 And because of this their [the Nephites] great wickedness, and their boastings in their own strength, they were left in their own strength; therefore they did not prosper, but were afflicted and smitten, and driven before the Lamanites, until they had lost possession of almost all their lands.

  21. J. Crawford Smith
    February 25, 2009 at 7:45 am #

    Sorry for the long winded answer last night. My point in trying to figure out who started every Nephite war was to figure out who the Nephite enemy was, so I could look for the same today. Alas, my myth was destroyed. NOT ONCE do the “Lamanites” start a war. The “Enemy” is within, every time.

    So the question, “Who do the Lamanites represent today?” is no longer the question I strive to answer. BUT, I will give my responce. The Lamanites (Jacob 3:3) just like the “Assyrian” (Isa 10) are just a tool in God’s hands used to “scourge you even unto destruction.” When God gives his Light, or sets you up as “the Salt of the earth” (3N16:8-16) and you refuse or turn on that light, he uses someone “Lamanite” “Assyrians” etc. to humble you.

    Keep in mind the over arching meaning of Isa 10. I God will “commission the Assyrians” to do my “Work” (i.e. Great and Terrible work) of destroying the Babylonians (USA). Once the Assyrians have done this work, they will boast that they did this on their own, not understanding it was I, God, that commissioned them. Thus I, God, (not mankind) will have to destroy them (Assyria) too. And that is because Assyria, “The Beast (Rev 17) then turns on the “remnant” aka Zion, that was saved in an exodus before the destruction (Isa 57:1).

    No time to look at this now, but Man vs Man in the last days is Assyria against Babylon. God vs Man is God against Assyria, “The Beast” (Rev 13, 14, 17).

  22. Carborendum
    February 25, 2009 at 11:49 am #


    Comment #19 — Thank you. I’ll look into it.
    Comment #20 — Completely unnecessary. I’m already aware. The reason I asked the question is that YOU seemed to be saying certain things about the Lamanites. Apparently you weren’t.
    Comment #21 — You give the description that I already knew, but you don’t really answer the queston. Maybe your answer is “it doesn’t matter”.

    I think it would matter who the “tool” is so that we can see who’s pulling the strings. Then we can be better informed.

    I’m just sayin’.

  23. Marc
    February 25, 2009 at 3:25 pm #

    I find it amazing that a 20 something from Poway can figure this out but most 60 somethings will be glad to tell you you are up in the night with your analysis. What will it take to awake this people?

  24. J. Crawford Smith
    February 25, 2009 at 11:11 pm #

    Yes Carborendum, I think the “tool’ matters immensely. But I’m not sure the BofM gives as clear a description as Isaiah. Nor do I believe the “Lamanites” represent “the tool” as well as Isaiah’s “Assyria” or John’s “The Beast.” The reason isn’t that the BofM authors did not know who “the tool” would be, but instead because, as Nephi, Alma, Mormon and Moroni all tell us: I was about to explain to you how the Gentiles get destroyed and the Remnant is saved, but I was forbidden…But hey, read Isaiah, he was not forbidden. They have all been prohibited from saying what they’ve seen happens to the Gentiles.

    Re-read 1N12-22 in one sitting. I call it the sandwich. Nephi gives a good chronology of last days events..then stops and says…oops not allowed to day any more. BUT then he give us 15 – 21 which all speak of an exodus out of Babylon and trek lead by the latter-day “Servant” (Isa 49) back to Zion. Then Nephi gives us another chronology of events, 1N22. I think Nephi told us through types what will happen in the last days that he was not allowed to say specifically.

    I’ve written an 80 page paper on Babylon the Great, and her destruction at the hands of the Assyrians, where I postulate who “the tool” is. I sent a PDF of the paper to Connor. If he wants to send it to you I’m fine with that. I don’t know how to post something like that on this blog. [EDIT: Here is the paper.]
    My guess.
    John’s “Babylon the Great” is the USA. (Rev 17, 18)
    Isaiah’s “Egypt” is the USA.
    Nephi’s “Great and Abominable Church” is who he says it is, the mighty Gentile nation, USA. (1N13-15, 22)
    Christ’s “Gentiles” that come upon the face of “this land…” are also the USA (3N16, 20, 21, 22)

    Who does the destruction of Babylon the Great, Egypt, the Gentiles?

    John’s “The Beast,” I believe is Russia and 10 kings that align with her. (Rev 13, 14, 17) Who those other 10 nations are I have no clue, but China, and the Middle East states come to mind.
    Isaiah “Assyria,” Russia (Isa 10) To understand Isaiah one needs to understand the metaphors used by Isaiah which represent different players. I won’t go into it here, but “hand, sword, wrath, anger,” etc. are some of the more frequently used metaphors used by Isaiah, and copied by many other prophets to include John and Nephi. (See Isa. 10:5 for a simple example of how Isaiah ties words together.)

    Anger Isa 5:25-26; 9:12,17,21; 10:4-5,24-25; 13:9,13; 12:1; 60:10; 63:6 God’s anger is kindled
    Axe Isa 10:15
    Darkness People choose darkness
    Flood Isa 8:6-7
    Rage BofI Intro Isa 63:6; 66:14
    Razor 7:20; 9:15-16
    River Isa 7:20; 8:7; 11:15
    Sea Isa 5:30; 11:15
    Vengeance Isa 10:6
    Wrath Isa 10:5,24-25; 13:5,9,13; His wrath is poured out
    Yoke Isa 9:4; 10:26-27; 47:6
    Ensign Isa 5:25-26; 13:2
    Fire They are burnt by the fire
    Hand (left hand – of destruction) pg 102 Isa 5:25; 9:12,17,21; 10:4-5; 13:2; 47:6; His hand is lifted up
    Rod Isa 9:4; 10:5,15,24
    Staff Isa 9:4; 10:5,15,24
    Sword They are slain by the sword
    Tongue dries up the tongue – Isa 11:15
    Their tongue utters lies

  25. J. Crawford Smith
    February 26, 2009 at 7:22 am #

    Nephite Traitors in America and our “Enemy” Russia.

    Carbonendum: I’m guessing still you want to see more evidence that Russia plays the role of modern day “Lamanites.”

    Four books and some audio I’d highly recommend.

    1. Skousen’s “The Nake Capitalist” not Communist, but instead “Capitalist.” On the first few pages he speaks of interviewing the ex Communist Party leader in America. Dr. Dobb’s, if I recall was her name. And during the interview she tells Skousen that she had orders that if she ever could not contact the Kremlin she was to contact some Wall Street folks and whatever they said was a go. And these Wall Street folks were some of the world greatest “Capitalist.”

    2. “None Dare Call it Conspiracy.” Details how the Fabian Socialists (AKA the “Robber Barons” of the last 1880’s – 1930’s) started organizations like the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), Trilateral Commission (TC), and the Federal Reserve. They continue to be your Gadiantons. These men funded the Russians.

    3. Read Antony Sutton’s “The Best Enemy Money Can Buy.” He documents how the Robber Barron’s have financed Russia from day one.

    4. The “Report from Iron Mountain.” You can pick up my Executive Summary of the report at this link.

    5. Audio by Col Fletcher Proudy. Prouty.org Col Prouty was the Air Force / Pentagon representative with the CIA for about a decade in the late 50’s early 60’s. His story about the U2 that was “shot down” is rather interesting. But I’d recommend listening to his entire library since it all deals with his first hand experience with the modern Gadiantons. You can download the video here.

    Those which control industry (the Gadiantons) also control our “enemy” so they can continue to sell arms. The Military Industrial Complex as President Dwight Eisenhower called it:

    “This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience … In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic process.”
    — President Dwight Eisenhower, farewell speech to the nation, January 17, 1961

    “Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.”
    — Dwight Eisenhower, April 16, 1953

    “I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days’ governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.”
    — Dwight D. Eisenhower

    “Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.”
    — Dwight D. Eisenhower in a letter to his brother Edgar, November 8, 1954

  26. Marc
    February 26, 2009 at 9:09 am #

    J. Crawford. I would like to read your 80 page paper. Connor has my email. Will you ask him to email it to me? What you are saying here is so timely and you are making so much sense with this. I really want to know more.

    I am glad that someone in the military can see things as they are instead of so many that have been mind programmed by the military system.

  27. Connor
    February 26, 2009 at 9:37 am #

    I have modified J. Crawford’s comment to include the link to the paper he referenced.

  28. J. Crawford Smith
    February 26, 2009 at 9:43 am #

    Marc: Thanks for your comments about the military. I was a Systems Officer, my wife was an Intel Officer. On 9/11 as we watched the second plane hit “live” I said to my wife, “We’ll be lucky if they continue to hit symbolic targets and not strategic ones.” That was my first impulse that “something was wrong.” When you are “David” you make sure the one rock you throw hits “Goliath” in the head and kills him. One shot, one kill is all you’re going to get. Why didn’t the “terrorists” hit a real, vulnerable, strategic target on 9/11 just never sat well with me. But it wasn’t until 2003 when Bush wanted an offensive war against Iraq that I began to change my mind.

    3N3:18 Now the chiefest among all the chief captains and the great commander of all the armies of the Nephites was appointed, and his name was aGidgiddoni.
    19 Now it was the custom among all the Nephites to appoint for their chief captains, (save it were in their times of wickedness) someone that had the aspirit of revelation and also prophecy; therefore, this Gidgiddoni was a great prophet among them, as also was the chief judge.
    20 Now the people said unto Gidgiddoni: Pray unto the Lord, and let us go up upon the mountains and into the wilderness, that we may fall upon the robbers and destroy them in their own lands.
    21 But Gidgiddoni saith unto them: The Lord aforbid; for if we should go up against them the Lord would deliver us into their hands;

    Even when you’re surrounded by an enemy the Lord does NOT apporve of offensive war.

  29. Marc
    February 26, 2009 at 11:13 am #

    J. – The whitehouse or capitol hill would have been great strategic targets but they werent hit were they? When the war started most of my lds friends were totally in support of it. I reminded them of the example in 3 nephi 18-21 that you cite here. All of them had some rationalization for why it didnt apply. Most just said “well president Hinckley said he was for it, so I am too”.

    For those that are paying attention it is so obvious that the war on terror and 911 are contrived, especially when viewed through the lense of the BOM parallels cited here.

  30. J. Crawford Smith
    February 26, 2009 at 11:35 am #

    Marc, not even the white house and capital hill are strategic targets. A strategic target takes out part of our “critical infrastructure.” (Power Grid, Drinking Water, Telecommunications grid, Transportation routes etc.) If the planes in NYC had aimed just a few blocks away at #1 Hudson street they would have taken out all of our international telecommunications lines going toward Europe from Wall Street. That would have killed our markets, not just closed them for a few days. Or if they had hit the Defence Logistics center in Kansas City that would have taken out all DoD logistical capabilities because that is where the DoD’s super computer center is located. Of if they had hit the DoD’s centralized (believe it or not) telecommunication hub in Cincinatti Ohio that would have knocked out allmost all DoD “secure” transporatation lines…Obviously the DoD has telephone lines with civilian carriers, but the majority if not all “secure” trafic goes through Cincinatti.

    I could go on…but that is enough.

  31. J. Crawford Smith
    February 26, 2009 at 11:41 am #

    One more thing Marc….The Pentagon…yes it was a strategic target IF the plane had hit the same side of the building that it flew in from West to East, instead of spending another 15 min above the most guarded air space on the planet to hit from E to W. The plane that hit the Pentagon if it had come in from W to E as it was when it entered the D.C airspace would have taken out Rumsfield, who by the way refused to leave his office because he is “too Fn old” (his words not mine. See Dick Clarks book on 9/11 for the exact quote.)

    So why didn’t the most important military commander next to the Pres follow protocol and leave his office to a secure bunker when he had a least an hour’s notice to do so. “I’m too Fn old to leave” and move to a secure bunker OK,…yah I buy that! NOT! The plane ended up hitting a side of the Pentagon that was under construction and was not full of military personel.

    go figure.

  32. Marc
    February 26, 2009 at 12:07 pm #

    J. – Thanks for pointing that difference out. I guess if the WH or Cap was hit that would have actually been a favor to the people! LOL…. I saw some photos of Rummy out carrying stretchers on the pentagon lawn right after the attacks. Why is the guy responsible for the nations defense not in a bunker somewhere trying to sort out the attack and making sure defenses where shored up? Very fishy…..

  33. J. Crawford Smith
    February 26, 2009 at 1:05 pm #

    Marc…maybe because it was good PR for Rumi..and or he knew the “threat” was over.

  34. J. Crawford Smith
    February 26, 2009 at 3:57 pm #

    Connor, sending you another link that goes with this topic. Audio by Col Fletcher Prouty who gives first hand account of how the USA brought Nazi Intel Agents out of Germany before the end of the war, so we would have intel on Russia. i.e. the “cold war” started before WWII ended. [Edit: here’s the file]

  35. Marc
    February 26, 2009 at 5:42 pm #

    J. – I am reading the babylon article you wrote. You talk about egypt and babylon being the military and economic powers of thier day and that these nations are really one nation in the latter days (the U.S). I thought it was interesting that our dollar bill has a picture of the great pyramid of Egypt on it. It made me wonder if thier was some sort of link there.

    Wasnt the tower of Babel the first attempt in recorded history to set up a world govt’? It seems to me that the Lord confounded thier languages in order to keep them from colluding and creating a world tyranny. With that in mind, isnt the word “Babylon” derived from the word “Babel” It seems that thier is a parallel there and this whole thing is coming full circle.

  36. J. Crawford Smith
    February 26, 2009 at 7:10 pm #

    Marc, the book I cite, “The Blessings of Abraham” by E. Douglas Clark is rather good on the first Babylon.

  37. J. Crawford Smith
    February 26, 2009 at 7:20 pm #

    One of the best books I’ve ever read on the last days is by Avraham Giliadi called “The Last Days.” You can find it on amazon for under $10.

    When you really want to begin to understand (and I don’t mean this in a demeaning way at all) the Book of Mormon, read Giliadi’s work “The Literary Message of Isaiah.” Without a complete understanding of Isaiah, the Book of Mormon is NOT understandable (from a Last Day’s perspective that is.)

    I’ve read the BofM 3 to 5 times a year for 25 years. I’ve searched it by topic, and I can honestly say that until I read Giliadi’s works on Isaiah, I did not understand the Book of Mormon’s Last Days message either to the Gentiles or the Remnant. He’s that good.

    WARNING: Once you’ve read Giliadi’s works you’ll NEVER have fun in Sunday School again. 😉

    Seriously, the best thing Giliadi has is an audio called “Analytical Commentary Of Isaiah” Verse by verse comentary on the entire book of Isaiah.

    PS: I sped it up by 50% because it dragged on without speeding up the MP3 files.

  38. J. Crawford Smith
    February 26, 2009 at 9:21 pm #

    Marc: an example of how Isaiah brings the Book of Mormon to life. Tonight in our family scripture reading we read 1N22, and I thought about what I’d written you earlier..

    I’ll use vs. 17 as an example.

    “Wherefore, he will preserve the righteous by his power, even if it so be that the fullness of his wrath must come, and the righteous be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies by fire. Wherefore the righteous need not fear; for thus saith the prophet, they shall be saved, even if it so be by fire.

    If you were to ask my father, a temple sealer, what this verse means he’d tell you that when the bombs and nukes of war explode in the last days, only the Mormon’s will be saved. God will miraculously save just the Mormons all other homes will be burnt. Nice idea, but not exactly what I think Isaiah is telling us.

    The Righteous” that God promises “to preserve” are the “Righteous Branch” AKA Lehi’s seed. (See 2N3 2N9:53; 2N10; D&C 86:8-9; Abr 2:11; Romans 11:1-6 etc. with Isa 48 and 49 that Nephi just quoted where Isaiah tells Jacob and Israel they will be preserved, and gathered. Then in the context of 1N22 see verse 12 where Lehi’s seed are promised to be “gathered” again.)

    His Power” is a metaphor for the latter day Davidic/Ephriamite Servant. (See D&C 113:3-6; 2N3:23-24; 3N20:43; Isa 49:3-6; which Nephi just quoted. Isa 40:10; 51:9; 52:1; 63:1) Note too in the D&C the reason the Gentiles did not obtain Zion was because they lacked “power,” but that “power” must come before Zion can be established. (D&C 103:15; 109:59; 113:8)

    His Wrath,” is the King of Assyria that destroys Babylon. (Isa 9:19; 10:5; 10:25; 13:5, 9, 13; 14:6; 59:18 etc.)

    Their enemies” The enemies of God’s righteous branch are the mighty Gentile nation (1N22:7; 3N16:8-16; 3N20:14-20, 27, 35; Isa. 1:24 which has reference back to Isa 1:1-4)

    By Fire” another metaphor for the King of Assyria. (Too many to list but in Isaiah the King of Assyria always does the burning of Babylon by fire. 1:7; 5:24 – both directed to latter day “Israel;” Isa. 10:16; 47:14 directed to corporate Babylon.)

    So lets re-read 1N22:17 with Isaiah’s definitions and metaphors added:

    Wherefore, he will preserve the righteous (Lehi’s seed specifically the house of Israel in general) by his power (the later-day Davidic/Ephriamite Servant), even if it so be that the fullness of his wrath (the King of Assyria – probably Russia) must come, and the righteous (Lehi’s seed) be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies (the mighty Gentile nation) by fire (which is the King of Assyria). Wherefore the righteous (Lehi’s seed) need not fear; for thus saith the prophet (Isaiah), they (Lehi’s seed) shall be saved, even if it so be by fire (the King of Assyria).

    i.e when the “Empire to the North” (as Mexican’s call the USA) is destroyed by the King of Assyria in “a day” “suddenly” “an hour” (Rev 18 and Isa 29:5; 30:13; 47:9; 48:3; 51:4) they will be taken “out of captivity,” “gathered together to the lands of their inheritance” (America), “brought out of obscurity and out of darkness.” Lehi’s seed will finally in that day, after having endured all the persecutions of the Gentiles (3N16:8-9) “know that the Lord is their Savior and their Redeemer, the Mighty One of Israel.” (1N22:12)

  39. Carborendum
    February 26, 2009 at 10:11 pm #


    Thanks for the bit about Gidgiddoni.

  40. Jennie
    March 11, 2009 at 10:34 pm #

    Well, in light of all of that…yes we are supposed to be reading and paying attention to what we study and learn in the Book of Mormon, but I think the biggest lesson is, Are we following the Spirit? Because if we are we are told we will find the truth of ALL THINGS. I’m not a writer and not very good at debating or trying to prove my point, but from experience I know that this is the greatest gift I possess in this mortal existence and it will lead me to all truth. Why is that not taught more?

  41. Connor
    July 13, 2009 at 4:28 pm #

    Last week, President Packer spoke at the Freedom Festival regarding the threats we face today. Here’s the money quote:

    We know that war can’t destroy [the sun, symbolic of America], but if it is destroyed it will be from within. And now we face a danger greater than any of the wars we have faced. To honor the Constitution and to honor freedom is a sacred duty for all of us. (emphasis added)

    Boom, baby.

  42. William
    September 21, 2014 at 1:38 pm #

    Similarly to your comment in the post above, “But given the public’s acceptance of a constant and massive media campaign to heighten our alarm and saturate our lives with fear”, in the time of the Nephites, “he [Amalickiah] began to inspire the hearts of the Lamanites against the people of Nephi; yea, he did appoint men to speak unto the Lamanites from their towers, against the Nephites.” (Alma 48:1-2).

    In our day this is done from the ‘towers’ of the mainstream media. Whenever you hear the drumbeat of war coming from the media you know you are being inspired to fear and hatred. The media tried to do this at least twice, somewhat unsuccessfully, with Iran and very successfully with Iraq.

    It is sad to see so many LDS members, who should know better because of the warnings in the Book of Mormon, fall for the same propaganda as the rest of the nation who don’t know of that great prophetic warning. I fear that many LDS members may be taking part in the blood and sins of this generation.


  1. Preventive War and the Book of Mormon | LDS Liberty - March 20, 2012

    […] of the book of Alma, are well known and document one battle after another. But as is explained in more detail here, every war it describes is one in which Nephite traitors have defected and instigated the […]

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