January 29th, 2008

Prophetic Support for a Modern Callout

photo credit: Thiru Murugan

When studying the scriptures, it is interesting to note certain themes and experiences repeating themselves. As Elder Bednar has said, one of the ways we should study our scriptures is by “searching the scriptures for connections, patterns, and themes”.

One pattern I have noticed in recent months is the calling out of the righteous from among the wicked, prior to the destruction of a city or people. While certain circumstances may differ between these stories, the basic principles and reasons are the same—before His wrath descends upon the people, the Lord calls out the righteous to a place of safety to assure their protection and spare their lives.

While I do not intend to document all such references in the scriptures (there are many), the following list should paint the picture:

  • Noah and his family were spared while all others drowned.
  • The Jaredites were led out from their native lands to a land of promise.
  • Abraham fled several times (from Ur to Haran, from Haran to a land of promise, and then into Egypt).
  • Lot fled into the wilderness and mountains to avoid the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
  • Moses guided the children of Israel out of Egypt into the wilderness and land of promise.
  • Lehi and company fled Jerusalem to a land of promise.
  • Nephi fled from destruction at the hands of his wicked brothers into the wilderness.
  • Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt at the Lord’s admonishing.
  • Alma fled into the wilderness several times to avoid destruction and slavery.
  • King Limhi and his people fled to a different city to avoid war with the Lamanites.
  • etc.

Examples such as these show a pattern in the scriptures: God leads his people to places of safety to avoid destruction when it becomes necessary to do so. We also read in the scriptures that there are many other such accounts of which we are not aware:

For behold, the Lord God has led away from time to time from the house of Israel, according to his will and pleasure. And now behold, the Lord remembereth all them who have been broken off, wherefore he remembereth us also. (2 Nephi 10:22)

Modern examples abound as well, with the early Saints fleeing from one place to another under God’s command. From Palmyra to Fayette, then to Kirtland, and Independence, to Kirtland, to Far West, to Illinois, and finally to the Rockies; the Saints have a history of being guided under the Lord’s direction.

With such a pattern established, one wonders what modern application these experiences might have. Applying these patterns to our day, and with supporting quotes and prophecies by Church leaders, we see evidence of a future callout of the Saints, with the Lord commanding those who follow Him to flee for protection.

Thus, clearly, the Lord has placed the responsibility for directing the work of gathering in the hands of the leaders of the Church to whom he will reveal his will where and when such gatherings would take place in the future. It would be well—before the frightening events concerning the fulfillment of all God’s promises and predictions are upon us, that the Saints in every land prepare themselves and look forward to the instruction that shall come to them from the First Presidency of this Church as to where they shall be gathered and not be disturbed in their feelings until such instruction is given to them as it is revealed by the Lord to the proper authority. (Harold B. Lee, via Quoty)

Heber C. Kimball supported such an idea when he said:

When the time comes that the Lord says, “Arise, and to your tents, O Israel;” then men must be pure inside and out; they must be for God, or they will have no part in the blessings conferred upon the righteous. We sometimes talk about cutting men off from the Church. Now, I want to know what is the use of retaining dead limbs upon a tree. If such limbs are allowed to continue, they impart death to the branches. (Heber C. Kimball, via Quoty)

President Benson also spoke of the righteous members of the Church being separated from the others, when he commented:

Sometimes we hear someone refer to a division in the Church. In reality, the Church is not divided. It simply means that there are some who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it. These people have a temporary membership and influence in the Church; but unless they repent, they will be missing when the final membership records are recorded.

It is well that our people understand this principle, so they will not be misled by those apostates within the Church who have not yet repented or been cut off. But there is a cleansing coming. The Lord says that his vengeance shall be poured out “upon the inhabitants of the earth…. And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me….” (D&C 112:24-26.) I look forward to that cleansing; its need within the Church is becoming increasingly apparent. (Ezra Taft Benson, via Quoty)

The verses that Pres. Benson cites can be quite alarming when pondered and analyzed further. Suffice it to say that the Saints will be tried immensely before or during the separating of the wheat from among the tares.

A few other select quotes illustrate the future and necessary callout of the righteous Saints from among the wicked:

We must both learn what these signs are and then identify them correctly when they occur. They can and will strengthen our faith in Christ and His prophets, if we know the scriptures. Just as in the days of Noah, a way is already prepared for the escape of the Lord’s elect Latter-day Saints, if they are in tune with His prophets. (H. Aldridge Gillespie, via Quoty)

The giant earthquake, and the tsunami it sent crashing into the coasts around the Indian Ocean, is just the beginning and a part of what is to come, terrible as it was.

Fear shall come upon all people. But you and I know that the Lord has prepared places of safety to which He is eager to guide us…. It will be our choice whether or not to move up or stay where we are. But the Lord will invite and guide us upward by the direction of the Holy Ghost…

I did not plan to speak to you about the hard times that are ahead and they are real, and they are coming… (Henry B. Eyring, via Quoty)

…for without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from the heaven, and the earth reel to and fro.

Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered. (Joseph Smith, via Quoty)

As is evidenced by these scriptures and quotes, there is a strong case to be made for a future calling out of the righteous from among the wicked. When it is to happen is anyone’s best guess. But given that the bridegroom comes at midnight, we should all be as prepared as possible for when the call comes, so that regardless of how difficult it may be, we will be willing to follow the Prophet and be led to places of safety.

60 Responses to “Prophetic Support for a Modern Callout”

  1. David
    January 29, 2008 at 9:50 am #

    I have reflected many times on the vast number of cases where the Lord has called his people to leave. Always it reminds me of the ever present invitation to “Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her;” (Isaiah 52:11)

  2. Scott
    January 29, 2008 at 5:08 pm #

    We are already called to come out from Babylon in our daily lives. Or perhaps more precisely, we are called to purge Babylon from our lives. I can’t find the talk at the moment, but a few years ago, Pres. Faust said in general conference that we are not called today to flee to a geographical place, as there is generally no such place left that could reasonably acommodate us. Rather, we are called to create Zion where we are.

    Does that mean that we will never receive such a call? I don’t think any of us can say that. But it is interesting to note that Joseph F. Smith long ago felt that the world was at least as wicked in his day as it was just before the flood. Today we are called to stand in holy places, but are not called to uproot our families to do so.

  3. Connor
    January 29, 2008 at 5:13 pm #


    I agree. There are many spiritual implications of the need to flee for protection.

    However, it is interesting to note in these examples of a physical gathering, that it was almost always a minority that did so, leaving behind most of the other “church members” of the time. Pres. Benson spoke of having a year supply as weeding away the unfaithful. Perhaps this is not all that farfetched. It would seem that should a physical callout ever take place in the future, only a minority of church members (50% of virgins were wise in Jesus’ story; 4-7% of church members have a year supply; etc.) will be prepared to heed the call based on previous obedience to given revelation.

  4. Janet
    February 2, 2008 at 8:05 pm #

    Interesting observations. As I was watching the funeral today, I wondered how many of the funeral attendees would be allowed a ticket if there were pre-requisites for the privilege…requirements like paying a full tithing and a generous fast offering, having a year supply of food, being debt free, 100% home or visiting teaching record, temple recommend and temple attendance… As we sing, “We thank thee Oh God for a prophet,” do our actions show it? Are we demonstrating our thankfulness by obedience? Perhaps this is the gathering to a safe place that was meant for our day. I wonder how many will keep the Sabbath day holy on super bowl Sunday? I think it is the everyday ordinary things that bear testimony as to the sort of saint we really are. If we don’t hear our prophet’s voice in these things when he has been calling for over a hundred years, we surely will not hear an urgent voice of warning that says “go now!”

  5. Jason
    March 25, 2008 at 11:56 am #

    Great post. I enjoyed all of the quotes from the brethren on this topic. I do not think that a call out will be to any “new and undiscovered land”, rather the purpose would be to separate the wheat from the tares. The church owns more than enough land to provide a place of temporary safety or refuge for the small amount of saints who would be willing to heed the call.
    Aside from all of this our focus should be on making ourselves worthy to hear the promptings of the Holy Ghost, and in striving to live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God, including food storage, debt and the other hard commandments.

  6. Jeff Thayne
    March 25, 2008 at 12:14 pm #

    I think it is important that we don’t include ourselves among the obedient in an elitist sort of way. I agree that the numbers of those who heed a modern prophetic callout may be few, even a “small amount”, but talking about it that way too frequently can too quickly coalesce into a subtle elitism (I am not accusing anybody, just observing what I have witnessed over the years).

    Our focus and our goal should not be to be among the few, but to invite and help prepare all. By service and inclusion, we ourselves are included, if you know what I mean.

  7. charles
    July 22, 2009 at 4:36 pm #

    I just wanted to thank you for your post and web page. I am a convert for over 30 years and have been studying end time prophecies during this time and have never felt the spirit on such matters until now. It started before the economic recession\depression we are now in and the spirit guided me to your and AVOW web sight where the spirit started confirmed again that we are moving close to a calling out; Then a person blogging that had terrible spelling and grammer said that it is all layed out in “Isaiah explained” by Avraham Gileadi. Normally the spelling and grammar would have turned me off but the Holy Spirit drove home to my soul to seek this out. Now for the first time the Book of Isaiah and the Book or Mormon and our true living Prophets have been opened to my mind and the Holy Spirit has been confirming more each day that the time is now to prepair every needful thin.

    Thanks again,

    Keep up the good work and help keep us true to the living Prophets of the LDS church and restored gospel.

  8. Connor
    August 6, 2009 at 10:52 pm #

    Well this is very interesting… a Messianic Jew discussing his belief in a callout as well.

    Worth the read. A second witness? Hmm..

  9. Greg
    August 7, 2009 at 12:11 am #

    See the Redemption of Zion on this subject. Read Orson Pratt’s entire talk if you can get a copy.

  10. loquaciousmomma
    August 7, 2009 at 11:25 am #

    Connor: What a fascinating read that was!

    Are these the people who will be able to escape into the mountain and to whom Jesus will appear first? I don’t know, but the possibility is fascinating!

    One thing that confuses me, though, upon further thought, is that both Zechariah and D&C say that the Jews will inquire about the scars that the Savior bears and be heartbroken to find that He is Jesus and that their ancestors did crucify their God.

    This leads me to believe that they will not accept Jesus as the Messiah before this point. Are the Messianic Jews the people that Zechariah referred to then? I don’t know. I am sure it is possible that they will be there, but that others who are not converted to Messianic Judaism will be among them. I am sure we will know in then end.

    Thanks Connor for one more thing to ponder!

  11. Carborendum
    August 7, 2009 at 5:24 pm #

    A second witness?

    And who would be the first witness?

  12. Connor
    August 7, 2009 at 5:56 pm #

    And who would be the first witness?

    Latter-day Saint leaders. I just find it very interesting that some Jewish guy is saying many of the same things.

  13. Greg
    August 7, 2009 at 8:28 pm #

    loquaciousmomma – There will be at least three major appearances of the Savior on the earth that in general are referred to as the Second Coming. The “second” appearance is when Christ will descend on the Mount of Olives and appear to the Jews clothed in a red garment as beautifully portrayed by Minerva Teichert.

  14. loquaciousmomma
    August 7, 2009 at 9:34 pm #

    Thanks, Greg. You are correct, the first will be to Adam Ondi Ahman, the second to the Jews and the third to the world as a whole. I tend to overlook details, and in my haste I make what seem to be foolish errors. Sorry!

  15. Joshua Steimle
    May 2, 2012 at 1:55 pm #

    My opinion is that prior to the Second-Coming there will be no physical callout or physical gathering, but that there will be a spiritual callout, which I believe is already underway and has been since the days of Joseph Smith.

    Part of this is based on my interpretations of scripture and statements by LDS Church leaders, part of it is based on my observations of the world we live in. I simply see a physical gathering as highly impractical, unless it were many physical gatherings around the world.

    That said, I like exploring other ideas about gatherings of the righteous and am open-minded enough to consider that a mass physical gathering might be in the cards.

    Regardless, I hope there’s ice cream involved!

  16. Larry Jensen
    May 3, 2012 at 10:55 am #

    I just read this for the first time. It struck me because I was in a barber shop just this week and the barber said, “when god comes to begin to separate the wheat from the tares he will start right here, in Utah, among the saints.” Then he shocked me and stated, “Some of the wickedest people on the earth are right here in Utah, among the Mormons.” This was in the context of a casual discussion about the 2012 Utah State Republican Convention. He’s a long-time Ron Paul supporter and he had been railing about Romney and Republicans (especially Utah Republicans). He wouldn’t share any specifics but he was visibly angry.

  17. Rob
    May 3, 2012 at 12:31 pm #

    Connor, I am not clear on whether or not you feel this call will come through the Church authorities. I think it will come directly from the Spirit/Angels/God to the individuals so prepared. This final call will not just be one to escape affliction. It will be a call to Zion. Perhaps only those worthy to see the face of the Lord will be there. That excludes most members of the Church, including many who have all their food storage/pay their tithing/have administrative callings. I think that precludes the call coming from Church administrative channels. Too prone to error. Things (and people) are hardly what they seem.

  18. Chaske Fisher
    May 3, 2012 at 1:29 pm #

    Connor, a call-out has been revealed by the Lord in dreams to old men and women and visions to young men and women. There are 10’s of thousands of these dreams collected and there are likely hundreds of thousands given. The Spirit has been poured out upon the servants and the handmaids and the call-out shall happen in the late-spring likely of some year very soon; May-June. 2013, 2014??? Maybe 2012, but I do not think this year!

    The First Presidency has prepared dozens of refuges throughout the Rocky Mountains and the requirement to go is one-year of food storage.

    Bishop David H. Burton said that no matter what the leaders of the church do or say, only 10-15 % of members heed the counsel to get that food storage and President Benson said that “it may be as important for you to have at least one-year of food storage as it was for Noah and his sons to get in the ark”.

    You probably know all this but it feels good for me to write it. If we do not have at least one-year of food storage, we have no promise, new members not included, who have not yet had the time to prepare.

    Some are ordained unto death and that is okay; they will continue to work for us the moment they pass through the veil. There Is No Death after all!!! 🙂

  19. Chaske Fisher
    May 3, 2012 at 1:32 pm #

    Yes, some of the most wicked people on earth are right among us in the Wards and Stakes of Zion, but the very most righteous are also among us, and those who stand with President Monson and a majority o the Quorum of the Twelve shall never be deceived or led astray.

  20. Chaske Fisher
    May 3, 2012 at 1:39 pm #

    Jeff Thayne, it is very important that we include ourselves among the obedient and righteous who have listened to counsel and who live by every word which proceedeth forth from he mouth of God. If you are not included in this group, which are few in numbers, there is only one other group to include ourselves in, and they are in number as the sands of the sea and dwell in a Great and Spacious Building. It is the choice and agency of each of us which group we include ourselves in. This group is not “Elite”; it is a group of exceptional spirits who love Jesus Christ more than their own lives.

  21. Chaske Fisher
    May 3, 2012 at 1:48 pm #

    Scott, we are told in scripture to flee from Babylon, but not to flee by haste or by flight, but to let all things be prepared before us. The call to flee physically has not yet come, but it is crystal clear from this post by Connor that a call shall come to do exactly that. If we have listened to prophetic counsel and to the Spirit, we shall be ready. If we procrastinate and kick against the pricks, we will watch our spouses and children suffer immensely and possibly die of fright while standing on their feet.

    God has not given us the spirit of Fear, but of power, and of love and of a sound mind. The faithful have been preparing every needful thing in preparation for the long awaited and prophecied of flight from the cities of Babylon, which includes Sal Lake City, onE of the most wicked cities in the world.

  22. Chaske Fisher
    May 3, 2012 at 1:52 pm #

    And yet Salt Lake Coty is also one of the very best cities in the world. Look at the stark contrast between Temple Square and the new City Creek Mall. The difference between good and evil is nowhere more apparent than right in downtown Salt Lake City.

  23. Rob
    May 3, 2012 at 4:45 pm #

    Chaske, I like your passion. Note that not one of Connor’s scriptural call-outs came through a Church organization. They came direct from heaven to individuals.

    Also, the whole “never be led astray” bit is worth continued study on your part. If you want more information about it, do some research into past “unanimous” decisions/policies of the Brethren that turned out to be mistakes (blacks and the Priesthood, called a mistake by Elder Holland in PBS documentary, or polygamy being as necessary to salvation as the Priesthood, according to Wilford Woodruff and adopted by the others prior to his “Church Prez will never lead Church astray”—there are many more). Men make mistakes. ALL men. Only God is perfect. The Brethren are correct inasmuch as they speak the word of the Lord, but as Joseph Smith was clear on, they are as free to speak opinion as anyone else, and they certainly don’t frequently make the distinction between the two. If you keep your eyes on God, and your life worthy of him (which is going to take a lot more than food storage), you won’t be led astray, and you won’t be left behind. If you are waiting for the 1st Presidency to have some midnight meeting for those with a years supply (which would include very many members who do not know Jesus and aren’t yet prepared to) you will miss the boat.

  24. jimz
    May 3, 2012 at 5:19 pm #

    I found your post very interesting. What prompted you to post when you did? Did you sense an awakening recently? You also used the phrase ‘in the cards’. Something inevitable? I can’t imagine you were refering to physical cards?

  25. Eric
    May 3, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    “Babylon the Great the Mother of all Harlots” (Rev. 17 – 18) is speaking NOT about a spiritual entity. (see Rev. 18:6-9) but instead a REAL global military materialistic empire. There is ONLY one of those today. So the command to “flee” (Rev. 18:4) must be a “physical” command. If Babylon is not an empire how is it that all the wicked kings, and merchants are spared?

  26. Chaske Fisher
    May 3, 2012 at 6:19 pm #

    Great point Eric. Just like Alma taking the Saints to the waters of Mormon to flee from that wicked king called Noah who committed so much iniquity: imprisoned Abinadi and ordered him to be slain, accused Alma of sedition, had his life spared by Gideon, fled before the lamanites, and commanded men to desert their wives and children, then was burnt to a charred death. Alma’s flight was a physical flight that when it was finished Alma refused to be king and did not desire public office over his priesthood responsibilities.

    We are right now under bondage from wicked men who desire to rule and reign and who request to be released from their priesthood responsibilities so that they can seek the glory of the world in business and politics, but the righteous shall escape from these wicked men who have everything in common with Amulon who later persecuted Alma and his people (who acknowledged him as a righteous leader).

    We may have to go through similar circumstances to once again establish religious freedom in This land and reestablish limited constitutional government and individual liberty, but one fact echoes above all the voices, and that is that wicked men perish and the righteous dwell in eternal felicity after the trial of their faith. The passion of Jesus Christ should be our passion!

  27. Nathan000000
    May 3, 2012 at 8:18 pm #

    Rob, could you please give a source for Elder Holland saying the priesthood restriction was a mistake? The PBS interview I read does not say that. Elder Holland says that the explanations for the practice were not doctrinal, but he never says the practice itself was a mistake. That’s a pretty crucial difference.

    A source for the Wilford Woodruff quote would also be appreciated. My guess is that the wording will show that the context, the setting, the audience, and/or the timing make it more complex than a flatly wrong statement.

    If you have collected instances of unanimous decisions that appear to you to be mistaken, I would be very interested in looking at your research. Would you be willing to email them to me? (This is a sincere request.)

    I agree, by the way, that I’ve never encountered a modern prophet’s statement that would lead me to expect a late-night food storage interview. 🙂

  28. outside the corridor
    May 4, 2012 at 9:22 am #


    we were “called out”, I guess. We were told to leave an area where there is an overwhelming population of LDS; the community had, in many ways, become very dangerous for our family. Over and over again we knew our children were in danger. We didn’t feel safe in our home.

    However, the ward in which we lived was absolutely filled with kind-hearted saints. They often laughed about food storage, but they were good, good people.

    It was painful to leave those people, though it was very easy to leave the civil community there.

    We were led to a community where the people are kind-hearted and basically very good, and there are very few LDS. We have had no threats, no violence and no theft in our new community.

    The ward? Very difficult. The most difficult people are from the area we just fled.

    It’s really mind-boggling. Extremely mind-boggling. The ward is a big trial to us, but in this particularly neighborhood/community we could see ourselves sharing our food, etc. In our old neighborhood/community we really believe we would have been in greater danger when things become even more difficult.

    I can’t honestly understand this. I know that many LDS are moving closer to large groups of LDS, but we were told to leave–

    One of our children has gone back (married and with children)–

    *taking a deep breath*

    I don’t understand everything that is happening in the world, but I often think that things are more complicated and less “black and white” than I used to believe.

    I believe there are many very righteous people among the non-LDS of this nation (and the world)–

    but I also know that there are many choice people among the LDS.

    Much remains to be seen.

    I honestly do not think this will come through “church channels”. I really do not.

    If so, we are sunk. We may have more food storage than anyone in our ward (and whoever said that it is important not to be lifted up in pride over that is VERY correct), but I believe we would be the last to be called!!! LOL! Maybe forgotten in the rush to get out–

    *laughing in self defense*

  29. jimz
    May 4, 2012 at 5:26 pm #

    There is something really strange, the words call out, or called out is used a lot in this thread. Mostly in positive terms. But there are also negative associations, like the following definitions of calling out or call out:

    “To announce to someone that one knows the other’s lies or intentions. ”

    “To mock or insult someone or to issue a challenge for them to fight.”

    “To challenge someone in some way. ”

  30. Jimz
    May 4, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    There is also some commentary on ‘Babylon’. Which I understand to mean “Gateway of God” or “Gateway of the God”. But in the O.T. it became ‘confusion’.

    The O.T. has a pattern of taking non-jewish places or words or names and twisting them. Like the goddess Belini (a love godess kind of like venus)became ‘belial’ “worthless”. The word for ‘lord of the high places’ Balzabul becomes ‘Beelzebub’ or ‘lord of the flies’.

  31. Naomi
    May 7, 2012 at 7:45 am #

    We’ve already been called to establish Zion. The only difference between those called, and those not called, is one hears the voice, the other does not. When we go to the Temple and really take the covenants seriously, we are listening to the call. I believe the Gatherings will be the same way. I think it may not be a general directive to move to a location, rather, a call to gather in the temple, gather in our homes (the proclamation to the family is a call to come out of the world, given by the prophet), to gather in our wards. In actually MOVING, it is likely to be a personal one, and those who listen to the Spirit in their lives will go, not knowing exactly why, not HAVING to know why. Those who do not listen, and argue, won’t go, and they will be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    We are all called to be part of something, and everybody has a job to do. But only the Lord knows just what YOU are supposed to do. Following the counsel of the prophet will lead you to the point of hearing what He asks you to leave, or do.

    Sometimes we are not “lead” to a safe place, so much as “lead” to make a safe place where we already are. If we listen, we “get” it, and we are protected. If we don’t, we have no safety. We WILL be required to obey the Lord totally and completely, and to give up EVERYTHING temporal if asked to do so in the course of that obedience, as well as being willing to give away ALL our sins one by one each time we are called to repentance. Yes, He really WILL ask the hard stuff.

    Our family has gone through some very bitter trials during the last 7-8 years, ending in being directed to move twice, and the last place was SUCH a disaster in so many ways (I cannot begin to describe the devastation, hurt, and suffering it brought). This article was a tremendous comfort to me – I have asked the Lord why He would lead us there for such an awful outcome, such a horrible trial for our family, because He did undoubtedly lead us here, we didn’t get it wrong.

    This article provided the answer – we are being sifted. Our family is being tried – to see if we will still obey after obedience seems to bring harm. Will we have the faith to keep choosing right, when doing so hurts so much? This is one of the things the early Latter-Day Saints had to endure also. We have had to leave virtually all of our belongings behind in the course of this trial as well. It was in reading this that I understood that this was the test of the last seven years, and that if we continue to obey, He will, in His time (when we have been tried sufficiently for the time being) give us respite in a place of safety where we can gather strength again.

  32. Chaske Fisher
    May 7, 2012 at 8:17 am #

    Naomi, thank you for your post. A religion that does not require the sacrifice of everything does not have the power to grant salvation.

    I can tell you one reason why you were called to experience the trials you have recently experienced. You and your family may have been able to experience your personal growth in many other ways, but by experiencing what you have experienced and not casting your faith from you, but actually allowing your suffering to have its perfect work in you and bring you closer to Christ, you have set an example for your entire circle of influence much like Job, whose circle of influence Jesus of Nazareth has magnified and stretched to countless millions and even trillions, if you will receive that?

    Your circle of influence has just grown larger by the GIFT of suffering which the Father of Lights, in His infinite goodness, has seen fit to *inflict* upon you.

    By your faith, you are in the good company of Abraham and his righteous posterity that shall live throughout countless generations.

    Jobs trials were at first known only to him and his immediate circle of influence, but by our Fathers grace were made known to all the posterity of Abraham and also the rest of the world through the ministry of His servants.

    Thank you for your faith and your example Naomi.

  33. jimz
    May 7, 2012 at 7:53 pm #

    I did a quick search on Jesus of Nazareth. Its odd, but according to some scholars there isn’t any prophecy in the O.T. that sounds like what is in Matthew 2:23. Its either a verbal tradition, or perhaps found in a text that never made it into the cannon of KJV of the bible. For bible literalists thats proven to be somewhat of a problem.

    Additional commentary suggested that narareth was very obscure, not mentioned in the Old Testament, the Apocrypha, the Talmud, nor by Josephus. In general the town and derived names was used largely in the pejorative sense of having a bad reputation or being of no significance. (John 1:46) The article I read was actually uncertain of its actual ancient physical location. Only stating the current location of a modern town with the name.

    I have some experience similiar to Naomi, in experiencing moving and experiencing loss in the last few years. Its probably more common than what people want to be believe. However my perspective is quite different

  34. AV
    May 7, 2012 at 7:58 pm #

    There have been many Church-wide ‘call-outs’ before by Presidents of the Church. Most have been righteous call-outs.

    But at least one was not righteous & those who went suffered greatly & unnecessarily the rest of their life, for going. While those who didn’t go remained safer & at peace & didn’t have to suffer like those who followed false counsel & false leaders.

    Only the Holy Spirit can tell us if a call-out is righteous or not, even coming from a President of the Church. For Presidents of the Church are not infallible and can and have been wrong about many things before. They can even fall & we must be able to discern if they have fallen or not.

  35. Chaske Fisher
    May 7, 2012 at 7:58 pm #

    Thank you for sharing that Jimz.

  36. Chaske Fisher
    May 7, 2012 at 8:22 pm #

    Interesting. The Lord has told us in His infinite love and condescension that He will never allow the prophet to lead us astray; He will remove the man who would become the prophet before allowing that man to lead His people astray. That is why several apostles and even members of the First Presidency who have had Socialist leanings have always been taken before becoming the Senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve.

    It is true that Prophets have always been imperfect men and at times spoken their own opinions on things. That actually does not harm my testimony of the divinity of their call, nor does it harm the testimony of those who love Jesus of Nazareth.

    A time of consummation is upon us and the Lord is about to cleanse the world and He shall start in His own House, among those who claim to be His disciples.

    I testify that Jesus of Nazareth lives and that he did in reality appear to Joseph standing beside our Father. I know that He is the Christ and I know that He shall indeed return in His glory and every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that He is the Christ.

    I am a Mormon boy, died in the wool, cut from the mold, true blue thru and thru. I am a Mormon boy, a Mormon boy.

  37. AV
    May 7, 2012 at 8:54 pm #

    I find no where that ‘the Lord’ told us ‘the Prophet can never lead us astray’. I find leaders who have stated that ‘opinion’, but it is not backed up by scripture or church history.

    In fact, believing that myth, is actually the fastest way to be led astray.

    While the Lord has made provision (in the D&C) to remove a fallen President, should that happen, that does not mean that he will always really be removed or even deteted, especially if the majority of the Apostles have also fallen and become unrighteous. Which could happen, for many, if not most, of the Apostles in Joseph’s day fell or apostatized. So if that happened again & the President also fell, they might just allow him to remain in office, maybe not even realizing he is leading the Church astray, for they may agree with him.

    Also, if the majority of the membership becomes unrighteous, then God will let the people fall for false prophets & false doctrine, because they chose not to live worthy of the Holy Spirit to detect them.

    One of the greatest tests in this life is to see if we can be deceived or not, even by false or fallen prophets & apostles.

    A righteous person or people cannot be led astray because they have the Holy Spirit as their guide & they study the scriptures & judge everything a prophet or any other leader says or does, by what the scriptures say. That is how they detect false doctrine & false prophets.

    For prophets can never contradict the scriptures or teach anything contrary to what past ‘true’ prophets like Joseph Smith taught or Joseph says that’s how we know they are imposters & false prophets.

  38. Chaske Fisher
    May 7, 2012 at 10:38 pm #

    🙂 AV, you just need to calm down okay??? I just found humor in the fact that you said, “For prophets can never contradict the scriptures or teach anything contrary to what past ‘true’ prophets like Joseph Smith taught or Joseph says that’s how we know they are imposters & false prophets”. Before that, you hastily stated about my prophetic quote that, “In fact, believing that myth, is actually the fastest way to be led astray.”

    What is got me laughing so much is that Joseph Smith Jr is the source for that “myth” as you so eloquently (or not so eloquently) called it; you decide?

    Furher, I definitely do not agree with your statement, “A righteous person or people cannot be led astray because they have the Holy Spirit as their guide & they study the scriptures & judge everything a prophet or any other leader says or does, by what the scriptures say. That is how they detect false doctrine & false prophets”. Actually, even the Elect shall be deceived, except the Living prophet, who cannot fall as He is Sealed up Unto Eternal Life and has the Second Comforter, even Jesus Christ.

    We do detect false doctrine through the Spirit through correct interpretation of scripture. You need to slow your mind down a little and look more closely at the character of men like Thomas S. Monson, Gordon B Hinckley, Howard W Hunter, Ezra Taft Benson, Spencer W Kimball, Harold B Lee, Joseph Fielding Smith, David O McKay, George Albert Smith, Heber J Grant, Joseph F Smith, etc before attacking the character of this calibre of men. When you do this, you are seen in a very dim light by the honest and faithful Latter-day Saints. You should be a bit more careful in choosing which side you are on and judge more clearly.

    If you are righteous and sanctified, then I will defer to your exalted wisdom, but when you contradict yourself as you just did, you actually lose some credibility. Wisdom usually dictates that we exercise a bit more patience in our thoughts before hastily hitting the send button. You know?

  39. AV
    May 8, 2012 at 3:31 am #


    I’m curious to where you read that Joseph said such a thing, do you have a reference? For I know that he knew more than anyone how easily many, if not the majority, of the apostles in his day were falling like flies & leading members astray.

    I also have never read any scripture that says the living prophet can never fall, etc. The D&C even makes allowance for it happening & what to do about it, when & if it happens.

    Even Church history proves that presidents of the Church can teach false doctrine & be wrong & make mistakes, & even fall.

    I have not attacked the character of those men, I have only outlined the principle on how to tell if they are righteous or not & teaching truth or not. Any faithful Latter-day Saint would understand these things & not believe in following any man blindly without questioning everything he does & says. For they would know how easy it is for anyone, even Prophets, to fall.

    D&C 76 & 45, says that those who have taken the Holy Spirit as their guide will not be deceived, for they will then be able to interpret the scriptures correctly & judge correctly between false & true doctrine & prophets. Any ‘elect’ that are deceived are those who have lost the Spirit.

  40. jimz
    May 8, 2012 at 2:53 pm #

    Interesting reading about the teachings of the second comforter. I didn’t know that it was a general teaching that members could regularly communicate directly with LDS gods. The LDS missionaries gave me the impression that it was a very uncommon event, as in only J.S. experienced that. I suppose I will not experience the first or the second comforter, as I am skeptical that jesus even existed. It seems very unreal, like hallucinations or made up stories.

  41. Chaske Fisher
    May 8, 2012 at 3:08 pm #

    AV and Jimz, I am thoroughly impressed with the spirit that you have approached this discussion with.

    AV, there is too much in our discussion for me to respond to as I lack the time to really search out these points.

    Jimz, it is not as uncommon as some might think. Skepticism is good. Keep being skeptical, and don’t believe anything until you believe it (or not). 🙂

  42. AV
    May 8, 2012 at 4:47 pm #

    While I know it is possible for anyone to become worthy enough to converse with Christ, I believe that many people today are being deceived by revelations & visitations by false Christs, thinking they have really met & conversed with the real Christ.

    When in reality, such a thing is so very rare & requires such a high level of righteousness & worthiness that is almost unheard of today.

    Thus these people go about easily leading others astray by their declared visitations & doctrines that most people just accept as true.

    It makes me realize how men like Korahor in the BoM were so convincing & able to deceive almost everyone they talked to, like is happening today in the Church.

  43. jimz
    May 8, 2012 at 6:04 pm #

    The average christian is open to the idea of the work of angels, and the like, but most believe that they are never seen or heard. But one can mysteriously benefit from their activity. I have heard that from Herold Camping, and actually from another source in the evangelical movement, although I don’t know where.

    Years ago this christian guy told me that visitations are extremely rare, only occuring when something major is about to happen in the world. At least as far as christians are concerned. In general, a lot of christians feel that they are never worthy enough for god. For them worthiness is not the issue, its a matter of ‘grace’, something that can never be earned. That is one point amoung many where lds and other christians differ.

    I always thought this was a good ‘cover’ for the fact that maybe there isn’t ever any angelic activity, and never was? Just as christians think the lack of bones for jesus is ‘proof’ of his resurrection and ascent into heaven. I am like ‘really’? There might be a few cases where the lack of something proves something, but if someone was a complete fiction, that doesn’t leave bones either.

    Most christians however do think that demonic activity is real, and can be seen and heard, move physical objects etc… I think thats rather odd, as that sounds like a stronger belief in demons rather than angels.

    This is going off in a tangent, but how does this all relate to the ‘calling out’? I am still unsure what LDS people think is required to receive inspiration, how do they know it, and how do they not know they are being deceived? Either by themselves or by something external? Be it supernatural, an organization, and individual, other groups of people, and for some reason which might not be what they think.

  44. Chaske Fisher
    May 8, 2012 at 7:17 pm #

    How do LDS know when they are receiving inspiration?? If you need to know something you pray about it. Once you think things through and ponder your question as thoroughly as possible, you pray some more. The truth of any and all subjects is made known through the burning of our bosom (chest, breast or our whole being).

    Moses looked upon Lucifer and asked where his glory was? The Holy Ghost teaches us truth and all men know what’s true through the Spirit of Christ.

    The Holy Ghost gives our mind and heart peace and we sense light. When something is wrong, we have a stupor of thought and a form of darkness in our minds.

    Of course, Lucifer and the trillions of Sons of Perdition who follow him can deceive, but they cannot read our minds and they cannot copy the burning of the bosom. They can appear as angels of light and they can manipulate and copy much.

    It is an individual course, but there is much help on that course. In order to know we must first trust in the teachings of the apostles and have faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the first step!

  45. AV
    May 8, 2012 at 11:16 pm #

    Those were very good questions Jimz, that we all must ask ourselves & find the answers to.

    I agree that we need to pray about whether something is true or not, & receive an answer from the Holy Ghost, which will teach us the truth of all things.

    But most people think they are receiving answers & confirmations from the Holy Spirit when they are really coming from the Adversary.

    Thus, I believe we need a 2nd witness also, along with the Holy Ghost’s witness, to make sure our answer really came from the Holy Spirit.

    For everyone I know in the Church, except maybe a few, have been deceived by false revelation or false doctrine or false answers to their prayers which really came from the Adversary, while they thought it came from the Holy Spirit.

    So since it is so easy for everyone, including Church leaders & Prophets, to fall for false spirits & false doctrine, while still thinking it’s all true and correct, I believe the 2nd witness must be to follow the commandment to ‘prove all things’ by what the scriptures say.

    Before we accept any teaching or counsel or doctrine by any prophet or person in the Church, we must ‘question and test’ if what they say is true or not, by judging them & what they say & do by what the scriptures say.

    Joseph warned us:

    “If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, set him down as an imposter. Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches.”
    Times and Seasons, 5:490-491, April 1, 1844.

  46. jimz
    May 9, 2012 at 3:45 pm #

    So the ‘truth strainer’ for you is the bible, BoM, D&C…no pearl of great price? How have you come to believe those are the source of truth? A second witness?

  47. jimz
    May 9, 2012 at 4:34 pm #

    Lucifer is the ‘morning star’, refering to the planet venus, or the ‘light bearer’. Lucifer as used in KJV Isaiah is most likely not completely correct. At least in how it has become a proper name, when the original in hebrew is not a proper name. The major problem is that its a latin name appearing in a hebrew text, time wise its a problem.

    Some believe the original hebrew word means ‘crowns’ or ‘constellations’ but its not a proper name like the use of the word ‘lucifer’.

    I am not certain how the ‘day star’ relates to christians, but there is a positive sense used in 2 Peter 1:19 “…ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.” Some translations say ‘day star’, some say ‘morning star’. Either way I don’t understand how that refers to venus or ‘lucifer’ in connection to ‘christ’. As many believe this verse is refering to christ.

    I don’t know if you are in the same camp as Av, questioning and test, and proving all things. But could this in your mind be applied to any philosophy?

  48. jimz
    May 9, 2012 at 5:48 pm #

    Interesting quote from J.S. almost three mos before his death.

  49. Chaske Fisher
    May 9, 2012 at 6:09 pm #

    I am definitely in the same camp with AV when it comes to questioning, testing and proving all things.

    Only in the occult is Lucifer associated with Venus. That does not come from the prophets of Jesus of Nazareth. Lucifer desires that all men worship him as the bringer of light rather than them worshipping the True Light of the World, Jesus of Nazareth, who is and was and forever shall be The Christ.

    The Day Star is Jesus of Nazareth in its purest meaning, and the day dawn is the Millenium when all His enemies shall be ashes under the feet of those who love Jesus of Nazareth more than their own lives, and even if all 7 billion people on earth decided to give into that false bearer of light and fight against the Father and the Son, it still would mean nothing pertaining to the fact that the Jews crucified the Messiah (Jesus of Nazareth) which their dads had taught the world of.

    We must continue learning always until we have all knowledge, but we must avoid that False Light Bearers trap of ever learning but never being able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Thomas S Monson holds ALL the keys of the Kingdom of God on Earth, and what he seals on Earth is sealed in Heaven and what he looses on Earth is loosed in Heaven.

    Take heed and be not overcome by that evil one who desires to sift us as wheat.

  50. jimz
    May 10, 2012 at 3:24 pm #

    Gerome when he translated the ‘latin vulgate’ version of the bible, used ‘lucifer’ because of his interpretation, finding a word which he felt was most fitting. This does not mean it was an accurate translation, for current understanding of ‘lucifer’. You will not find the name ‘lucifer’ in the original hebrew, but ‘Heylel’.

    “Satan” however can be found in the original hebrew texts of the O.T. Useage ranges from ‘the accuser’ to ‘the adversary’. HA-Satan is used as a title for a being, but not actually a specific name of a being in the O.T. Its in the N.T. that the title becomes a specific name of a particular being.

    Your commentary about jewish crucifixion of jesus is rather surprising, LDS commentaries on the topic usually do not point to jews.

  51. Chaske Fisher
    May 10, 2012 at 4:23 pm #

    The prophets have always taught that the Jews crucified Christ, but they also reach that the Jews are a covenant people and that they were first to receive the truth and that they will be the last to accept it in the last days.

  52. Chaske Fisher
    May 10, 2012 at 4:26 pm #

    The Jews taught the world of the Messiah but rejected him when he came as a Lamb. They shall weep bitterly for what their fathers did and the Jewish nation shall be healed in a day when they see the prints in Jesus of Nazareth’s hands and feet where He was wounded in the house of His friends.

  53. jimz
    May 11, 2012 at 5:27 pm #

    A read some praise for the LDS faith on a jewish webpage. The author does not agree with christian or LDS theology, but thought that as a religious body the LDS faith has been friendly to the jewish people. Although there has been some misunderstanding between jews and mormons on both sides concerning works for the dead. I am not jewish, but I can only imagine that they would look with disfavor any responsibility for the crucifiction.

    Another webpage addresses how there is only one arrival of the messiah mentioned in the law and the prophets, and reviews claims of messiahship by christians and other movements and how they failed to meet the predictions.

    Personally I am skeptical that jesus actually existed. Certainly the jewish people do not recognize this character as their messiah.

  54. outside the corridor
    May 14, 2012 at 8:37 am #

    I need to go back and read everything. I have been enjoying the discussion among AV, Chaske, and Jimz.

    Might I speak up here to state that when people use a defining term for a group of people, it is never completely unanimous and often misleading?

    “Jews” means a fairly small segment of the “Jews” who lived during the time of Christ.

    Many, many Jews became Christians. “The Jews” often refers to the leaders of the Jews, the political and religious leaders, but even among them were a few who supported and listen to Jesus and even defended him.

    So, it’s important not to generalize or collectivize. Often those who are most ‘loud’ in a group or who appear on some level to be the majority–

    are those who are designated by that label, where, in actual fact, that ‘majority’ doesn’t represent everyone.

    Many, many “Jews” have become Messianic, which means that that they have accepted Jesus Christ. There are Jews who are hostile towards Christians and Muslims, and Jews who are not. There are Jews who support Dr. Paul and Jews who support Obama. In and out of Israel and America. There are Jews who are critical of Israel (Noam Chomsky and others in America) in and out of Israel and America. There are so many different KINDS of Jews that it is mind-boggling.
    There are also many different kinds of: Bhuddists, Christians, Hindus, Muslims, and Mormons–


    So . . .

    I am always looking at the group as a group of individuals rather than as a collective.

  55. Chaske Fisher
    May 14, 2012 at 8:50 am #

    Very good points outside the corridor. I should clarify more often which segment of the Jews I am referring to.

  56. jimz
    May 14, 2012 at 6:21 pm #

    Chaske and OTC,
    I looked up the definition of a jew, just so that we are on the same page. “one of a scattered group of people that traces its descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from postexilic adherents of Judaism; Israelite. 2. a person whose religion is Judaism. 3. a subject of the ancient kingdom of Judah” OTC your comments are fitting for the definitions, Chaske, your comments are fitting particularly for #2, and to a lesser degree to #1.

    I suppose its a matter of opinion if one thinks there is any conflict between christianity and the jewish faith, people or culture. Of the ones I know, they have a lot in common culturally, although some are not religious at all. But even the less religious tend to be well versed in the torah.

  57. jimz
    May 14, 2012 at 7:11 pm #

    I wanted to comment on something in post #44. About the burning bossom thing. I experienced that very intensely when I spoke to a Hare Krishna woman over 20 years ago. Perhaps one of the more spiritual people I have met in my life, however briefly. I actually bought a copy of the gita from her. What is your idea of how that could be something in common with the LDS faith, and yet be such a different philosophy and outlook? Several Illustrations in the book showed a glowing image of a god in the heart.

    The founder of the krishna organization which brought the gita to the united states was very charismatic in spreading that philosophy. I found a video of him, and now I see why. I don’t follow the philosophy, but I do like him singing in this video.
    http://www.asitis.com/ it takes awhile for him to start singining, about two minutes in. Its the very last video on the bottom. Bhagavad Gita 4.13 Class Video — Srila Prabhuapda

    Srila prabhuapda claimed that jesus and krishna are in fact the same diety. So do you think they have the same inspiration as you do?

  58. outside the corridor
    May 15, 2012 at 8:41 am #

    Jimz, I can’t get to the point where the singing begins on my youtube–

    and I have to get off the computer NOW–LOL!

    But ayuverdic (sp?) medicine is brilliant.

    Well, so is Chinese traditional. Those people KNEW things that Europeans didn’t–

    (same with native Americans)–

  59. jimz
    May 15, 2012 at 6:41 pm #

    OTC, you can use the scroll bar to advance the video. The chanting I like starts at around 2min 10-15 sec. After that he goes into a sermon which didn’t capture my attention. At the end they all chant hare krishna for a very, very long time.

    Indian and Chinese medicine is very fascinating. I know that european herbalism was also quite amazing, but I think most of that got replaced with western modern med practice. I am currently in an allied health program. I sometimes wonder if it was the right choice for me. Its changed my perception of the whole system.

    I came across this book years ago that explained some stories associated with herbs in chinese medicine. If you know the stories, it makes it so much easier to remember the herbs and how they are used. I think thats similiar to something in indian medicine. I like the one about matromony vine, and the story of he she wo.

    The indian herb ‘tulsi’ has some story that warns people against chewing the herb. Its a great herb, but it must not be chewed, as it damages the teeth. I didn’t know this years ago, and apparently a resturant didn’t know this either. This cook thought he was being clever by replacing ‘basil’ with ‘holy basil'(tulsi) in a dish. I ate it, and remembered my teeth feeling weird. I didn’t put 2&2 together until about a year later when I read the indian story about the herb.


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