A child’s curiosity and natural desire to learn are like a tiny flame, easily extinguished unless it’s protected and given fuel. This book will help you as a parent both protect that flame of curiosity and supply it with the fuel necessary to make it burn bright throughout your child’s life. Let’s ignite our children’s natural love of learning!
April 24th, 2008
FLDS Petition Conclusion
Note: Any responses received will be posted at the bottom of this post.
As of this morning I have closed the FLDS petition. This was necessary so that I could email the 2,000+ people who signed and encourage them to follow up and contact their representatives. The website I used will not allow me any contact with the signers until the petition is closed. Having served its purpose (and reached double what I was ever hoping for), it’s now time to follow up.
I encourage you to contact the following government leaders, including those from your own state if you live elsewhere, to demand a response regarding the petition and the issues it addresses. I chose to contact the officials in Texas, as well as Arizona and Utah, since FLDS communities exist there as well.
I contacted the following people:
Texas Governor Rick Perry
Texas Lt. Governor David Dewhurst
Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott
U.S. Senator John Cornyn
U.S. Senator Kay Hutchinson
Texas Department of Family and Protective Services Commissioner Carey Cockerell
President George W. Bush
U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey
Utah Governor Jon Huntsman
Utah Lieutenant Governor Gary Herbert
Utah Attorney General
U. S. Senator Orrin Hatch
U.S. Senator Bob Bennett
Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano
Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard
Arizona Senator Jon Kyl
Arizona Senator John McCain
I sent the following letter out to AZ Governor Perry, customizing it as necessary when sending it to the other officials and state representatives:
Last week, I started an online petition that calls for the release of the innocent women and children currently being detained in your state. The petition received over two thousand signatures from people all over the country, who like myself, are concerned with your state’s intervention into family life.
I don’t think that a single person who signed this petition condones abuse in any fashion. Most don’t agree with polygamy or the FLDS religion. What unites us, however, is our demand that the Constitutional rights guaranteed to each citizen of this country be preserved.
If there are cases of abuse, we encourage you to investigate and prosecute them. But we condemn any broad action that targets innocent individuals who have done nothing to merit removal, interrogation, and detention. A fundamental maxim in our country’s legal process is the fact that all citizens are innocent until proven guilty. Apparently this is disregarded in your state.
As the petition says, we urge you to release the innocent women and children being held captive by CPS. We also demand an apology for this mistreatment and blatant disregard for the rule of law.
Despite a person’s religion, race, or lifestyle, all should be entitled to the basic liberties and protections guaranteed by law. Removing children from their families on the basis of some alleged future abuse is illegal, since Texas statutes indicate that there must be an immediate need based on present abuse. Your state has failed to demonstrate such evidence in justification of the removal of 437 children.
We therefore urge you to release these people and allow the families to return to their homes. Please do continue in your investigation of abuse in specific cases, but the broad targeting of an entire community must stop.
To view the petition:
– http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/free-the-innocent-flds (online version)
– http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/images/petition.pdf (PDF version)
Please take a few moments to help put the pressure on these politicians and get some results from our actions. Thank you all for your participation and support—now, let’s demand action and results!
I received the following message from Wynee Breece, Senior Volunteer and Community Engagement Specialist:
The Department of Family and Protective Services has received an outpouring of responses including support, concerns and suggestions for the situation in Eldorado, TX. Understandably, public opinion varies based on each individual’s experiences and personal belief system. We, as an agency, share the public’s deep concern for these children, and we are working closely with law enforcement agencies, the court and other professionals to ensure the health, safety, and well-being of each child. The court oversees all CPS legal cases and is responsible for determining what is in a child’s best interest. Every child’s future is important to us; thus, we are working diligently to achieve best outcomes for each of these children. We acknowledge that you have taken the time to voice your concern, and we appreciate the many responses we have received. If you would like to email the petition to me, I will relay it to the Commissioner. Thank you for contacting DFPS to express your viewpoint.
If you would like to contact Mr. Breece, please email me and I will give you his email address.
Utah Senator Orrin Hatch replied (letter dated April 25, 2008):
Dear Mr. Boyack:
Thank you for your letter expressing your concerns about the recent raid of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS) Texas compound.
I certainly understand your concern regarding this issue. However, I am hesitant to comment on this matter as it involves ongoing legal proceedings and matters falling under the province and jurisdiction of the state of Texas. While I share your concerns that many people throughout the country have regarding the crimes associated with polygamy, including sexual abuse of children, I also believe that the members of the FLDS Church should be afforded their constitutional rights.
I am hopeful that, as this matter unfolds, the Texas courts will be able to address these events in a manner that is respsectful of the rights of all the parties involved and the interests of the children. Rest assured that I will continue to monitor this situation with interest.
Thank you, once again, for your letter.
Utah Senator Robert Bennett replied (letter dated May 22, 2008):
Thank you for writing regarding the April raid on the Yearning for Zion (YFZ) Ranch in Eldorado, Texas. I appreciate hearing from you and welcome the opportunity to respond.
On April 3, 2008, Texas law enforcement raided the YFZ Ranch, owned by the polygamist sect known as the Fundamental [sic] Church of [sic] Latter-day Saints (FLDS). Texas officials were reportedly motivated to conduct the raid by claims of sexual abuse and underage marriage occurring on the ranch. Official reports state the raid was instigated when an unidentified caller told a Texas crisis center that she was 15 years old and being abused by her 50 year old husband. Because marriage of a youth under the age of 16 is prohibited, and because of the abuse allegations, the police believed they had jurisdiction to intervene. Upon arriving, they romved the children and women from the ranch in an effort to identify ongoing abuse at the ranch. All told, child protective services removed more than 460 children from the ranch and placed them in foster care pending individualized hearings. On May 22, 2008, the Texas 3rd District Court of Appeals ruled that the children were not under “imminent danger”, and should not have been removed from the ranch in such a manner. However, the judge did not order the children to be returned to the ranch.
The case is truly heart-wrenching. Claims of sexual and child abuse and the stories of families being separated pending hearings cannot help but touch us. But, family issues, including the removal of children from homes, fall under the jurisdiction of each state. As an elected federal representative from Utah, it would be inappropriate for me to intervene in this Texas matter.
I trust that the local officials in Eldorado, Texas, will make informed decisions regarding the YFZ Ranch and will bring those who may have harmed children to justice while maintaining the affected families intact insofar as possible.
Thank you again for writing.
122 Responses to “FLDS Petition Conclusion”
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“When the wicked rule, the people mourn.” This applies to both the government and the FLDS. I will continue to pray for the children. What has been done is just wrong!!
Great Job Connor! You did a wonderful thing. I can not tell you how much I appreciate it as a citizen of these “not so great of late” United States of America.
May I copy this post and put it on my site located at Free the FLDS Children? I’d like the reach of this information to go far and wide.
Ann, please feel free to post it elsewhere.
Connor, thank you for championing this cause and helping others to make their voices heard.
I shudder to think that if I lived in Texas, my children could be taken from me based solely on my religion and the mere suspicion of abuse.
Sadly, we sacrifice our rights and trample on the rights of others simply because the ends justify the means!
My thoughts and prayers go out to these children and their parents. I can scarcely imagine how I would live without my children! I would be devastated!!
I agree with everything you have said and are doing. I read your editorial in the Daily Herald this morning and tried to sign the petition. My daughter was also trying and couldn’t figure out how to do it. It was confusing till we cut and pasted this website and learned it was now closed. It would be a good idea to put on your petition page that it is closed so people won’t get frustrated wondering what’s wrong like we did. We just kept clicking to sign but nothing was happening. Thanks!
I wanted to thank you for putting the petition together. My wife and I are ex-flds members. While we lived in the flds community we were never abused, kicked out, and when we left we were never chased down. We both loved growing up In a safe community . We chose to leave because of religious differences. I feel that what Texas has done has violated so many Constitutional rights and I fear for the rest of us. Thank you again I appreciate you for standing up for our Constitution. My in-laws also send a heartfelt THANK YOU.
Thank you for your efforts, these children need all the help they can get.
I would be very grateful if you could let me know the reaction of the Governor to your petition. I am betting you will not even be given the courtesy of a reply, even if the petition contained 50,000
Every Constitutional right imaginable has been violated here, and if the people allow it to stand, they deserve their own doors kicked in one day for a hoax.
The parents have put up a web site, captivefldschildren.org
I emplore those who want to see the truth to look at those video’s and imagine their own family’s being dragged through this persecution.
They need help, please do not abandon them!
Conner (and others),
Thank-you! Those are my friends and some of my beloved family members. This whole fiasco has been executed in a cold and heartless manner by the State of Texas and the CPS. I personally do not know of any underage girls married to old men, or even married for that matter (and I do not look the other way to purposely not see it). I do know, however, many loving FLDS fathers, mothers and their children. I grew up in a loving environment and was taught to learn and grow by love. I have 50+ brothers and sisters, (and yes, I know all their names) the youngest married was 18 years old at the time.
Now, everyone is not the same, so of course there are some who will do wrong and will abuse, but that is NOT condoned by the FLDS and is expelled as quickly and decently as possible (that is why there are many embittered ex-members). Those people have only hurt themselves (and now hundreds of innocent people) by hiding their own wrongs and pointing the finger of blame at others.
Thanks for letting me “vent” : ) for a minute. I am just so horribly appalled at what is happening and well, my heart is broken and weeping for the children. I have seen many of these same children happy, smiling, playing and joyful. I can only imagine the hell they are going through now. I wake up in the night and my thoughts are of them. May God bless and protect them. And again, thank-you for being kind!
Thank you for all your effort! Its a shame to see how the rights of these people have totally been walked on and how Texas thinks they can split of families like this. Some of those kids are my own relatives, Although i am not a part of there religion but I know they are loved and well taken care of. If CPS wants to be useful they should start searching houses around the country and i am sure they will find plenty of real abuse cases to keep them busy for a very long time. I don’t think the state of Texas gives two cents about the safety of those children… this is not even about safety. This is about there ego and thinking they can squash a persons right to believe the way they want to. It makes me sick to my stomach to see how Texas of all states has been dealing with this. The only thing that comforts me at night is knowing God is in charge. Those kids are in my thoughts and prayers at all times. I hope all this comes back and bites Texas in the butt!
Thanks, Connor, your involvement is appreciated.
Is there any email/mail address of those FLDS people, so messages of symphaty could be sent to them?
This is so sad to see these people’s rights ignored.
Here are a few videos that are quite eye-opening about CPS:
Can we sit by and do nothing through this tragic ordeal in which people’s constitutional rights are ignored? I am SO shocked at how they rip families apart and just don’t care.
Are my kids safe? Are your kids safe?
Quite sobering for me.
Hey Peter, you posted the following:
“Thanks, Connor, your involvement is appreciated.
Is there any email/mail address of those FLDS people, so messages of symphaty could be sent to them?”
There is a website they have set up:
On the website, it has an email address for sending comments to.
Hope this helps.
Are you serious?
How dare you!!! You should all be ashamed. I read some of the post on the petition and I am so disappointed. Half of you don’t even know what’s going on. I can’t believe some of you are comparing the Texas government to Hitler and the Nazis. This has nothing to do with religious persecution, and we’re not trying to have a mass murder of FLDS followers, were not starving them, were not forcing them to work in camps, hell those kids are getting better treatment than kids who have been children of the state their whole lives.
This isn’t something the government did on a whim either. This investigation has been going on for years and they knew what was happening. You can’t expect that a state government would take on anything this huge just because a little girl called in.
Americans my butt, you’re all idiots!!! I’d hate to live in a state that wouldn’t have done it for me. Bravo Texas, Bravo!
You would want the state to take you from your parents because your neighbor was abusive? Nobody has presented any evidence that all the parents of the FLDS children have been abusive.
I live in Canada and what I’ve been seeing with these people is abhorrent.
There are many communities in North America, in cities, in many communities that have reported abuses towards children, but I have YET to see a government go into a neighbourhood which has even a few reported abuses towards children and remove ALL of the children from that neighbourhood. It WOULD NOT HAPPEN!
I read a comment on a board which said , if we were talking about a homosexual community a muslim community or a catholic community , it wouldn’t be even on the radar.
These people are easy targets , they are peaceful, obviously love their children and have a healthy sense of community.
There will ALWAYS be problems in ANY community. So deal with those problems on an individual basis!!!!!!!!!
SHAME on the TEXAS GOVERNMENT!!!!!
This may be the greatest miscarriage of justice and abuse of civil rights since the Ku Klux Klan. The complainer turns out to be a 30 year old black woman from Colorado Springs who has never had anything to do with the FLDS.
All law enforcement officers who participated in the kidnapping of these people and the abuse of their civil rights should be barred from ever holding a law enforcement position again. The Texas governor should be replaced immediately and each menber of the FLDS should be compensated for the terrible travesty they have suffered. Apparently the Texas authorities are as easily duped as their candidate for president was.
Looks like you stepped in it again Connor. Most of those children were either pregnant or they were already mothers. Forcably impregnating a child is wrong. It was wrong when Joseph Smith did it. It was wrong when Brigham Young did it. And it is wrong in todays world too. Why you LDSers believe impregnating young girls is God’s word is beyond me. Todays society it just not going to tolerate it anymore. The child molestors are going to be found guilty and they are going to prison. It’s too bad we cant turn back the clocks to when Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were doing the very same things and inprision them as well.
We DON’T believe impregnating young girls is right. We believe it is wholeheartedly WRONG. If you study the teachings of the LDS church you would know that.
How many of the 400 children were pregnant or parents? Give us data to support your claim. The 3 i’ve heard about do not in any way compose “most”. That’s .7 percent. From what I’ve read it’s lower than the national average for teen pregnancy. But I guess that’s only if you include all the children, much of whom are well below child-bearing age. I have a hard time believing 3-year olds and toddlers can be mothers. Your claim is way off-base.
You have made accusations that have NO basis in fact.
If today’s revelation of the numerous teenage mothers is accurate, then I will be mildly disappointed with the FLDS.
Why only mildly? Well, first of all, when the FLDS moved into Texas, the minimum age for marriage with parental consent was 14. In response to the booming FLDS population, some state legislators succeeded in promoting the change of that age to 16.
Additionally, I do not believe that an equitable justice system punishes the victims rather than the perpetrators. Why are the men not being investigated, removed, and punished? If these alleged crimes are so atrocious, why are the victims being removed along with their innocent siblings, friends, and neighbors?
Also, I do not believe that double standards hold any moral ground. How can we feel morally justified in so aggressively pursuing the issue of teenage pregnancy among one small population when we are not doing so in other communities?
Finally, I reject the authority upon which the state has even based their investigation and allegations. The authorities in Texas are all too eager, it would seem, to have America forget the reason they went in in the first place: a fake phone call. They’re scrambling for evidence and something to vindicate their assault, caring more about saving face than truly helping children.
That being said, and as Jeff pointed out, I and others on this side of the issue do not condone abuse, rape, or teenage impregnation in any form. If two consenting adults want to shack up together, whether in adultery or polygamy, then that’s their own judgment call to make. But the child factor certainly changes the picture, and paints a scenario that is quite hard to swallow. Your assertion that Latter-day Saints somehow support this action is laughable if not downright stupid.
Actually, it was in the news today that 31 of the 52 or so girls between 13-17 years old have been pregnant or are currently pregnant. If that’s correct, than the trend sure seems to exist.
As already stated by Connor and many others on this post, the crimes that are committed should be prosecuted when there’s proof the crimes occurred. This obviously includes girls getting pregnant younger than legal age. Please don’t construe revealed information in the news to mean that Connor (or any other LDS that agree with him) supports what has been discovered. Honestly, you just make yourself look like a fool for doing so. And no one wants that.
I am corrected. Last week, I had heard otherwise.
I should research before I post… I was going off previous information. Now I realize what sparked Bishop Rick’s comment, even though I think he’s wrong in his accusations.
conner thank you for all you have done , no body condones abuse or molestation nobody sees cps is breaking the law I would hate to have the media involved in my case because most people trust cps I did and they made up every lie they could about me even though I could prove them wrong the judge wouldn,t accept my evidence but enough people have seen how deceitful cps is maybe not all of them but everyone I,ve meet are terrorist don,t believe anything they say unless you have seen it with your own eyes the only reason they take children first and keep their parents away is so the real evidence will never be found now it is all about what cps makes up to steal the children if there so worried about being dicovered they wouldnt keep familys apart anyone who believes their outrages lies will in the future learn it is all hear say and they have no physical evidence wheres the proof they can lie and get away with it and everyone in oath lets them one cps worker alone gets a 6,000.00 dollar bonus for every kid placed in the adopt-fost program Mrs Hillary clinton started , 2.1 million dollars just went in the cps workers pocket just one worker for the removal of these innocent children from the FLDS do you honestly believe this is about underage pregancy & molestation that goes on every where not just among one group but society as a whole lets go take everyones kids and call them guilty until proven innocent equal protection fo the law right why are you picking on them take the guilty and leave the innocent alone this thing you are a ccusing them of happens in are own society . My neice just found out a 12 year old girl is pregnant in her public school come on cps step-up to the plate wheres the DNA on this girl<s babys dad we are all created equal where is the justice open your eyes hard enough America do your homework and you will find its in your whats in the best interest of the child cps workerspockets thats why they take the innocent children away utah,s famous for it and are general Attorney thinks the FDLS prayed against him wwhen he had his motorcycle accident I think enough negative energy innicent people have when you have helped kidnapped innocent children and destroyed familly can carry alot of weight , I am the most forgiving person in the world but forgive the cps worker for what she has put me and my children through I say never My bishop & doctors say I must or it will destroy me I agree but I cant comprehind it in this life time I hope God can get me there Lets all pray maybe if people would go to web-sites on innocent children who died in the hands of cps and you see the biological parents tribute to the death of innocent babies as young as 2 mos old to 18 yrs and not even the loving parent had the rights to protect their babies and go find the numbers of children dropped off in foster care who become lost and never heard from again wake-up I would never lie to you these are all facts you can find yourself if you care enough to save our children you will and I urge you never listen to hearsay demand physical evidence .
I think from the past facts turned false we need to take what Texas CPS says, with a lot of grains of salt! It seems anything goes anymore.
The recent news that so-called “half” of the teenage girls, age 14-17 are or have been pregnant, is meaningless. It is a propaganda statement designed to outrage the public and justify the raid and kidnappings.
This number includes many women who are over 18! But the state will not accept their offered proof that they are adults.
The state judge (Walthers) has not allowed the women of the FLDS church to prove their ages by using their birth certificates and social security cards and tax returns. The judge says birth certificates and drivers licenses can be faked, so the CPS did an “eyeball test” to guesstimate the ages of the women and girls.
Some of these so-called “underaged girls” are legally wed to men their own ages! One 17 year old young woman is married monogamously to a 17 year old young man. One 17 year old young woman is married monogamously to a 22 year old man. These women are counted in the 31, though they are legally wed to men their own ages.
Many who CPS claims are less than 18 years old are actually older. One of the women being held as a minor is 24; one is 28; that according to their lawyers, who are not FLDS members and who have nothing to gain by hiding their true ages.
What CPS reports is purposely misleading and does not prove anything.
They need to start personal law suits!
TITLE 42 > CHAPTER 21 > SUBCHAPTER I > Â§ 1983Prev | Next Â§ 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights
How Current is This? Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.
Connor, please face the facts. Joseph Smith impregnated a young girl. Brigham Young impregnated several young girls. Warren Jeffs and some of his followers impregnated young girls. All three of these can be put in the same catagory. I know you believe that God ordered Joseph and Brigham to impregnate young girls but there is no proof of that order. Joseph and Brigham bedded young girls for their own selfish pleasures. Warren Jeffs did the same thing. Three peas in a pod.
How old was Mary when she was impregnated with the Savior?
You seem to have it al figured out?
Yes Bishop Rick, how old was she? She was 12 years old!! In case you didn’t know, which wouldn’t suprise me.
Furthermore, it was by an older man, Joseph didn’t come to the first gathering of the elders because he was an older man, when the Priests called for the all the elders to come and plant their staffs in the ground Joseph didn’t come because he felt he was too old!! The Lord told the Priests to make sure all of them came the second time, when they planted their staffs Josephs grew leaves and became alive. Of course, Joseph didn’t really impregnate her, but that’s another long story.
Bishop Rick wishes they had CPS back then to jail Joseph and place the Christ child in a foster home.
Ahhhhhhhhh,we dont really know how old Mary was when God presented her with the Christ child. As you recall that was known as the Immaculate Conception and no earthly man took part in it. I know you LDSers and FLDSers have a different version. And we know that version was pulled out of thin air by one Joseph Smith. Yes the very same Joseph Smith who was tried and convicted in a legal US court of numerous felonies. His track record speaks for itself. My main point remains intact and spot on. I understand that LDSers are banned from telling the truth about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young; I however am not banned from telling the truth. It was wrong for LDS members to impregnate young girls in the 1800’s and it remains wrong today. Why is this concept so hard for you to understand? Could it be that this issue is hitting too close to home? If Warren Jeffs is right then Joseph Smith was right too. You cant have it both ways.
Bogus warrant with foreknowledge of the same – where is Rozita Swinton? Why hasn’t she been arrested? Any potential criminal proceeding is jeopardized due to the bogus warrant. The women are victimized and the children are innocent, so you victimize both further by splitting them up…1-year-olds, can you imagine their suffering? No due process in re individual hearings. Failure to meet burden on law that danger to children be “immediate”. Even the ACLU called them out, as have tons of legal professionals.
CPS is grasping at straws. Rather than believe records they “eye-ball” test for age…claim “teen” pregnancies, but legal age of consent is 17 with an adult, previously younger – further allowances are made for sex amongst minors. Now they claim 41 old fractures in a population of nearly 500 children spells abuse…again, DNA evidence, etc, gathered under a bogus warrant will not fly in criminal proceedings…who are they chasing?? Check the national incidence rate for fractures in children – hovers right around the ratio cited. CPS is desperate for guilt, they’ve got some pretty weak soup so far.
Bishop Rick…here’s a quote especially for you
– Napoleon Hill http://napoleonhill.wwwhubs.com/
The Prophet Joseph was tried and convicted based on flimsy and unfounded “evidence”, and whenever he could get before a “just” judge, he was exonerated. ANY conviction he received was from corrupt judges who were outspoken in their hatred of him and Mormonism. And if you actually took the time to study – he was brought before different courts time after time on the exact same charges of which he had already been aquitted of in another court.
According to the dictatorship of their hearts, the Corporation known as the State of Texas may dictate so. And even the Corporation known as the United States may dictate so, but then again they are not my Gov. They abandoned those seats as such long ago. And their reaching out well beyond the bounds of DC’s 10 mile square is nothing more than you allowing it in your lives. Just who is a private IMF controled Corporation when it comes to making law and judgment? When that same Corporation joined the IMF, World Bank for reconstruction and development, and the EU, it became evil as they seek a world court and dictatorship. They are not, nor will they be my moral police. Scripture is being fulfilled and you are backing them it. In the end you both will end up in the pit. Seems like Judging Joseph Smith and others by what others may say, but may not be true can be a tragic path leading to endless torment. No wonder I pray for my answers and avoid the word of mouth wich always seems to be twisted.
Connor, on immigration, two years ago:
I am absolutely in favor of obeying the law, and since illegal immigration is against the law, there is no room or tolerance for amnesty for people breaking the law.
Connor, on the FLDS (who are practising polygyny and child marriage illegally) now:
Yes, these people are different from “the rest of us”. They have a strange dress, lifestyle, and a religion that is at odds with “mainstream” Christianity. But is that license to pursue the present course of action? I submit that Texan officials have far overstepped their bounds, and will soon find themselves in a mess of legal trouble if they do not immediately apologize and return the children and families to their homes.
That’s funny. Why the difference?
1. Being Latino is not a religion.
2. Connor doesn’t expect to be a Mexican someday.
That’s funny. Why the difference?
I’m surprised that a smart guy like you didn’t catch the numerous statements I’ve made in this post and other FLDS-related ones regarding my stance on the prosecution of the individuals in this case.
In summary (perhaps I need to keep it short and sweet so as to drive it home better): I support the prosecution of individuals breaking the law.
So the difference? There is none!
What I oppose is the punishment of individuals who have done nothing wrong, who have been charged with no crimes, and who are being targeted because of the actions of their neighbors. Nowhere on this blog have I supported breaking the law (though I do question the morality and constitutionality of some laws), especially as it relates to underage abuse of any kind.
Next time, please get your facts straight before you go accusing me or anybody of hypocrisy.
Let me type this slowly so you’ll get it.
Polygamy is illegal in Texas.
Not usually prosecuted because there are more serious crimes. But I think it’s weird that on some issues you’re like “The law’s the law” and where there’s a religion involved, you’re like “Whatever”.
Polygamy is illegal in Texas.
You fail to understand the legal implications of the type of marriages entered into by members of the FLDS faith. Polygamy is indeed illegal, so polygamists have taken to performing “spiritual marriages” to circumvent the ban. Thus, you have one monogamous couple as well as some other “wives”.
If you argue that this is equally illegal, I would ask you why we are not then similarly prosecuting adultery in all its forms and abundance, since it equates to the same thing—the main difference being that women and their children are likely supported far better in a “spiritual marriage” situation than in an admittedly adulterous one.
Besides, there are many monogamous FLDS couples whose children have been taken as well. Thus, the raid has nothing to do with the prosecution of polygamy, as you try to claim.
But I think it’s weird that on some issues you’re like “The law’s the law” and where there’s a religion involved, you’re like “Whatever”.
I support just and moral laws. I frequently oppose what I consider to be immoral and unconstitutional laws on this blog. To draw a line between them on religious grounds is absurd, as I frequently oppose laws that have nothing to do with a religious group or nature.
But have you ever come down against the practice of a religious group? Seems to me that when the rights of elderly white polygamist men to impregnate teenage girls is threatened, you can’t rush to their defense fast enough.
I suppose I should be hopeful that you’re abandoning moral absolutism in favour of a more nuanced view, but I fear that hope is in vain. Where do you stand on Heinz’ Dilemma? It would help me explain a few things.
But have you ever come down against the practice of a religious group?
Sure. I disagree with a number of practices in a number of religious groups. But that’s irrelevant to my point. I am not advocating one practice or decrying another—I’m arguing that the civil liberties of all individuals should be preserved, regardless of their religion.
Now, if their practice breaks the law, then that is a different matter. You accuse me of rushing to the defense of old polygamist men who impregnate teenage girls, but nowhere in my writings will you find such a stance. Again, if there is abuse of any kind, I am all for investigating and punishing it. But as I noted in my last post, I do not believe that group justice and/or punishment is moral or legal.
I suppose I should be hopeful that you’re abandoning moral absolutism…
Where do you stand on Heinz’ Dilemma?
I’ll have to reply to this later, since I’m heading out the door right now.
It seems like Daniel is for mob rule, he seems to agree that just because someone makes some claims about someone else they should be taken as truth. It is this type of hype that the media feed on and it will be the death of freedom as we know it. Why the third world mentality? May be he is a TV generation learner, “if it is what they said on TV it must be true”. And those planes really did bring down 3 buildings, cause Bush and the media said so.
While he’s out, the bad news keeps on coming.
At least 41 children seized from a polygamist ranch in West Texas in April have had broken bones, and some young boys may have been sexually abused, Texas officials said Wednesday.
The article goes on to say that the state didn’t offer any evidence for these assertions. I’d love it if this were all false, but these are people who excommunicate their young males to reduce competition for females, so reserving judgment is not as easy as it might be.
@ Greg Lesher: There were planes?! I thought it was the rows and rows of explosives that Donald Rumsfeld planted up and down the towers.
There are two kinds of freedom here. There’s those hoary lechers’ freedom to abuse those girls and boys, and then there’s the freedom of the kids not to be abused. I know whose freedom I’ll stand by. Thanks for showing your hand.
Yes the lies keep coming. Broken bones? My arm was broken in grade school, but then again I took a bike jump as fast as I could pedal. Children break arms, legs and worse. Texas is grabbing at straws. It is what happens when you leap before you look. It is the same knee jerk reaction you see any high school child would do when caught red handed. Texas screwed up again, just like the did in Waco. They do more to damage than protect. And this time I hope The State of Texas pays for it big time. May just be we will see some action on Texas from above in behalf of these families prayers. I am sure there is some abuse, but on a level less than what we see in the rest of the US. I just happen to have a friend who grew up in Colorado City, and what you hear from the media and The State of Texas Corporation, just aint so…. Business as usual
Broken bones??? 41 out of 460 or so children is about a 9% incidence rate of broken bones over these children’s lives so far. How does that stack up to the general population?
(delete spaces in links)
On About.com we see that broken bones are extremely common in children.
orthopedics dot about dot com/cs/pediatricsurgery/a/fractures.htm
The American Academy of Pediatrics states that broken bones are the fourth most common injury in children under six.
www dot aap dot org/publiced/BK0_Fractures.htm
Over 50% of children will sustain a fracture before they reach adulthood.
www dot kidsgrowth dot com/resources/articledetail.cfm?id=260
Exams also find a history of injuries everywhere, this update means nothing…except to show that there are in fact fewer broken bones among the FLDS than there are in the general public, by almost a SIX to one ratio!
Since when is it just for me to be punished for my neighbor’s actions?
Also, Connor is not defending child abuse. He is defending the rights of those mothers who have not committed or been charged with a crime to be with their children.
@ Jeff T: Exasperated sigh. As I told Connor before, no one is arguing that kids that aren’t at risk of being abused should be removed from their parents. The problem is that it is suspected that those children have been abused or were at immediate risk of being abused.
If they’re wrong, and there has been no abuse, then that’ll be the best news I’ve heard all week. Bad for the families, but child protection is about making the tough calls. I don’t envy their job, that’s for sure. Let’s see what comes out of the paternity tests and the medical reports. Of course, I happen to think that being brought up FLDS is ipso facto a form of child abuse, but that’s not really actionable.
@ Greg Lesher (again):
And this time I hope The State of Texas pays for it big time. May just be we will see some action on Texas from above in behalf of these families prayers.
Are you hoping that a supernatural being will… smite Texas? I would ask why you hate America so much, but that’s so 2005.
And a slap to my own forehead wrt Greg’s comment: I finally realised that this is about Waco. Isn’t it? It’s all about Waco. The anti-government right is still feeling the reverberations from that awful Branch Davidian thing. I remember living in Utah at the time. I heard nothing but jackboots and black helicopters out of the locals for weeks.
Well, maybe the folks in Texas are learning from past mistakes. This time they got the kids out of the compound first before the folks on the inside had the chance to burn down the whole place.
Am I now going to hear about how Janet Reno single-handedly lobbed Molotov cocktails onto the roof? Come on, Greg, don’t disappoint me!
You sure like to put words in people’s mouths. First of all I do not hate America. What I hate is those like you who destroy what America is about, an it is those who abuse the supreme law of the land who oppress the people. And yes, it is those who have taken our God granted freedoms and liberties who I pray for a swift judgment. Clinton and Obama say we live in the greatest country in the world, and they want change? How about the restoration of what we have that made this country so great??
As far as what is going on with the abuse that happend at Waco, the branch davideans were nothing more than Seventh Day Adventists. In fact he was looking like he would be their next prophet. A little investigation would reveal that the local sherriff said he could, and wanted to arrest the man with out any incident. They knew each other personally. But that was what the wanted, a show of force and as a result a lot of inocent children were burned to death by fire. And hardly a cry was heard from the public under their media coma.
I have some simple questions any one with any brains could answer, view the video “lose change” or “in plane site” and answer any of those questions the experts ask with solid answers and we may have somthing to talk about. Dr. Steven Jones has shown proof that the patent version of thermate was used, but still no investigation in to that. Hittlers path once again….
The only evidence they have that some of the children may be abused is that their parents are members in the FLDS church. If that’s all it takes to get your child taken away, then you are punishing them based upon their religious faith, not any actual crime they’ve committed. There is no evidence of actual or potential abuse by many of the parents involved. Why take the children away?
Is it just for the government to take my kid away on fear of potential abuse because an abusive neighbor happens to belong to the same church as I?
As far as broken bones and the average:
What Texas does not take in is the fact that brain dead children like their own, who sit in front of the TV and watch crap and play video games all day, hardly break a sweat let alone a bone or two.
To Daniel… Have you never climbed a tree and broke a limb? : )
I personally know many of the “lost boys” and whatever you “believe” from media reports aint neccessarly so. Most of the young men were out at nights drinking, smoking, and sexually involved with (gasp) underage girls. Are you saying that we (FLDS parents) should have encouraged that behavior and allowed it so the boys would “stick around?”
And for your info…each boy chose on his own to stay or go. Staying meant cleaning up and making something more of their life…going to school…learning a trade, etc. And the reason so many of them have “educational problems” is for the very fact that they “chose” not go to school, rather, they “chose” to go off with their “friends”.
My suggestion to you is don’t believe everything you hear and half of what you say!
The hearts of everyone of those boys’ parents were broken. They want nothing more than for the boys to succeed in life, BUT…should they give up their values so a stubborn teen gets what he wants? Shouldn’t those boys be as respectful of their parents as everyone in the nation seems to think the parents should be of the ‘Lost Boys’?
And please don’t rant back at me about FLDS values or such…just realize – there is WAY more to the story than any of you realize…give the same consideration to the FLDS Parents that you give to “Lost Boys” before condemning anyone.
With all due respect, the treatment of the so-called Lost Boys was beyond the pale and was nothing more than a mass excommunication of competition for the older men of the FLDS sect.
My compassion for you and your children starts at the overreaching hand of the government, and ends at the point where you extend your hand to expel boys as young as 13 from your community. Shame on you!
I will fight for your right to reunite with your children, but please do not confuse my compassion for ignorance and blind acceptance of everything that takes place in the FLDS communities. I do not condone the marriage of underage women to older men and I certainly cannot abide the thought of women being forced to be subservient to men who exercise unrighteous dominion.
I know a man, he was no “lost boy” and was raised in Colorado City, he did not marry a girl from that city, nor was he booted out. But he knew a few that were asked to leave, and with good reason. I would no more accept illeagle drugs and such in my home than they would. So shame on you for assuming these media hype lost boys deserve to be a part of this comunity who hated such unlawfull contriban.
By the way I know more than one of those men. And the story is the same, you and your media are in a bed of lies.
Yes shame on you…. and your assumptions.
I have to stand up and say here, I left the FLDS because I wanted to play, I wanted to go to movies, I loved basketball, and I liked a girl. My mother was sad, but she said “you need to make the choice that will make you happy, God want’s us to be happy, and if that’s your choice go be as good a man as you can”. I left, I know many of the lost boys, they are all ones who listened to Dan & Flora and saw they could make a ruckus. I am happy, My mother still loves me, although she is grieved with my choice. FLDS Mom is very correct in her sentiments, and for your information Brian, you have been brainwashed with a lot of lies and misinformation. Oh, by the way!! Did you notice I can spell and type? I’m not dumb and neither are most of them, except the ones who refused as was stated to go to School.
Funny. I never did break any bones, even though I climbed lots of trees. Played a lot of Atari, as well. That probably helped.
@ Jeff T: I do have to confess that, in hindsight, the phone call that started all this looks like pretty flimsy evidence. But then, I don’t know what the current guidelines are when social workers etc. are determining when to pull kids out of a potentially abusive situation. I can’t agree with your analogy though —Â this situation is a bit different than two people who happen to belong to the same church. I’d say it’s more like a community where abuse is (or could be) endemic. In this case, the abuse is caused by a religious practice that is shared by the community. So, yes, it does make sense to hold the community accountable for its shared practices.
Australia had a situation like this last year where some Aboriginal communities were rife with alcohol and sexual abuse, and the government took some fairly stringent and controversial steps to oppose it. Might be an interesting comparison.
I am realising that somehow I’m arguing against Connor and the ACLU at the same time. How’d that happen? Next time you feel like bagging the ACLU, could you remember this issue? Sometimes they go to the wall for issues you’d agree with.
@ I Am NOT A Lost Boy: I’m very interested in your story. Did you ever believe in the church (‘have a testimony’, as they say)? Was it hard getting out? Feel free to contact me off-blog via my link, if you want. I’m interested in de-conversions of all types.
A side question to any FLDS lurking: Would you consider yourselves ‘Mormons’?
I still have a testimony!! How’s that you say? Well, again I said I left because there was things I wanted to do, that were forbidden in the FLDS, well, forbidden is a strong word, but it was frowned upon. Especially the movies and liking the girls. Basketball was ok, but only in a friendly sporting way, I am very competitive, and I wanted to play more than what seemed healthy I guess. I feel like I still have a testimony of the things I was taught in the FLDS, it just wasn’t strong enough to overpower my other desires, if you know what I mean. As far as hard getting out? Hell no, I wavered in and out for a few months, and had lots of motherly advice, and some of my brothers even took me aside, and in a very caring way admonished me!! But when I finally left, I just left, I told them I was going, they all said “well, do the best you can, were sorry to see you go, as we love you very much” then off i went, I’ve met some since, and they are warm, loving and I can tell they still yearn after me to some extent, but on the same hand, want me to be happy.
No assumptions on my part, Greg. I rely on the stories told by the Lost Boys. Just Google “FLDS Lost Boys” and you will see everything that I see and read everything that I have read. Sad, really, the stories they tell.
I don’t doubt that some people do leave willingly, but what Warren Jeffs did to them is shameful.
Not a Lost Boy,
You will have to forgive me for not believing you, but your words don’t ring true as it relates to the Lost Boys who were thrown out of Colorado City.
The grip of power that Warren had and may still have is more powerful in controlling the lives of FLDS members than you may be willing to admit.
Warren Jeffs ejected these boys from the community, in many cases, for simple, benign violations of religious and community standards.
They don’t sound like the lost boys stories, ummm, perhaps you can see my title: I Am NOT A Lost Boy, that’s the name. Furthermore, you can’t see past your own nose, or whatever appendage you care to interject. You think we were all forced out, well, U. Warren reached out to me many times, I was never made to feel like I wasn’t wanted there. Google bullcrap Brian, Google Satanism, Google even Brian and I’m sure you’d find a lot there that you wouldn’t want attributed to you. I spoke cause I’m sick of the disinformation campaign, and whether you believe me or not makes no difference, because what I’ve said is true.
I’ll admit that I don’t know much about the “Lost Boys” to draw any conclusions either way. But, your statement Brian “Warren Jeffs ejected these boys from the community, in may cases, for simple, benign violations of religious and community standards”. I have a problem with your thoughts on this, what you or someone else in “mainstream society” might find benign to others could be major. It’s all in the perspective. To me (as an LDS) smoking cigarettes is a pretty big deal, and it goes against the teachings of the WOW. But, to an outsider who discovers that someone who is LDS wasn’t allowed to enter the temple “simply because they smoked cigarettes” might find that a benign reason for now allowing someone into the temple. Maybe to them Watching Movies (and being admonished and told to obey and not do such a thing) was a good enough reason to expel these boys for disobedience, but to those of us who don’t live their life it might seem a bit stiff to be punished for. But, this is their religious, who am I to tell them what the rules should or should not be?
Thank you! 🙂
If I don’t participate in that practice (child-abuse), as many mothers didn’t, why should I be held accountable for it? Isn’t that punishing me for refusing to participate in what you would called the shared practice? Isn’t that punishing the good, as well as the bad? The ones who despise child abuse, and refuse to participate in it, despite the actions of the rest of the community? It seems that these individuals should be honored, not punished, for their defiance of the community norm, right? Then why are they being treated like criminals?
@ Jeff T: It’s an unfortunate procedural necessity. Think of it as like trying to detain members of an unruly crowd. You’ll catch a lot of innocent people who just happened to be hanging around, but as you filter through all the people, you throw the ringleaders into the slammer and let the rest go. It’s a process, it stinks, and it’s the only way to do it if you think a large percentage of the crowd is involved in the crime.
@ Ann Marie Curling
But, this is their religious, who am I to tell them what the rules should or should not be?
For atheists, this is an easy one. 🙂
I don’t know about Australia, but I believe in situations like that, U.S. law allows people to be held for only 24 hours without charges. After that, they have to press charges or release them. It is illegal to hold people indefinitely without charges.
I am not a Lost Boy….I’m so glad you spoke up. I am so very tired of hearing from people that listen to media as well. (Media says whatever sells.)
I have sons, each have had to make their own choices. Two were having some troubles. What I mean is they liked girls, listened to bad music and drank with friends. This in turn lead them to be very disrespectful to their father and me. They had to choose, what they wanted in life. I’m so grateful the choice they made was to clean up their life and stay. They are very good men now and such a support to us all. I also have another son who is having to make the same choice. At first he didn’t want to stay, but he is seeing things a little different. He doesn’t want to leave now…he is working on cleaning up his life as well. I pray he can do it. I know he can, but its his choice. All the boys that have left had the same choices.
What the standards are for one religion may not be the same standards for another. We expect perfect obedience. Honoring the parents. Behaving as the “outside” world does, is NOT honoring your parents. We try to raise our children to be clean, have morals, to talk sweetly, to act sweetly, to love one another, to be kind to everyone, pray for everyone, forgive everyone, and let God be the judge, ect. How could this life style be so abusive. You say well underage marriages…. this is not taught nor is it trained. I was legal age when I married my husband who is only two years older then me. Old men??? Where???? There aren’t very many old men left here. But there sure are a lot of young men that are ready to be married, and there are a lot of older girls, in their 20’s that are still waiting to be married. I’m sorry, but the media says a lot of lies. “Judge not that ye be not judged.”
Howdy, folks. It sure is good to see An FLDS mother, and Not a Lost Boy on a blog! I thought I was alone out here!
I started a Blog called FLDSview.blogspot.com and welcome any and all to view and/or plagiarise. I will definately add this site to my link list.
Hey, and by the way Greg Lesher, Moroni is still waiting for his deed! 🙂
Daniel, I know most of the “Lost Boys” who were in the news, and would give you any information you wanted about any of them. MOST of those who sat on the steps of the Capital of Salt Lake would consider it an INSULT if you called them a “lost boy” now.
In fact I have contacted several of them, and even the ones who don’t like Uncle Warren are writing letters to the judge in Texas blasting what those Nazi’s are doing.
I guarantee you NOT ONE child will ever appreciate being tortured by the CPS for kidnapping them from their mothers and homes.
Connor, I’ve got a book you aught to read. It is called “Kidnapped From that Land” by Martha Sonntag Bradley. Greg Lesher’s friend that grew up FLDS’s mother is on the cover. (The one hiding behing her mother)
That is a great book.
Moroni has his land. He just needs to pay someone for the legal description so I can sign it over. He said he would get the survey soon… I have talked to the surveyer for him etc. Any time he is ready, but I cant sign anything over with out a description first? If he does not want it we will buy it back at the same price etc. he paid. But I will not sell land to anyone else that cheep again. Unless we know them like I do Moroni and his family.
PS, Moroni is not the only one I knew who grew up there, have some Barlow friends as well. Some who now disagree with the FLDS but who know what Texas and others have said is BUNK!
We the Members of Sons of Liberty and Daughters of Liberty have signed the Petition!
We have distributed your news videos on Youtube to ALL our Supporters and Contacts. We sent you a Freind Invite as well.
Like you, we also do not support the Beliefs of the FLDS Church, BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE!
This issue is a SERIOUS BREECH of the Rule of Law and the Constitution of the Republic of the United States of America!
To whom ever is interested in the TRUTH on this issue, and NOT the FALSE PROPAGANDA pumped out daily by the Media.
Please see our Youtube vido on this issue, Thanks.
God Bless and God Speed!
Sons of Liberty
Daughters of Liberty
Sons of Liberty,
I want to thank you for making that video. It shows it the way it is. The more support we have from people outside our religion, I think , the better chances we have of getting the children returned, of a fair trial, of our amendments given back, etc. I am not involved in this horrible kidnapping, but I have a lot of family there.
These families involved are a witness to the world of how we have been trained, to “keep sweet”, live morally clean lives. You will not find a sweeter people anywhere. I’m not speaking of myself, but of those that live on the YFZ ranch. I only hope to be as good as they are.
pligchild– Its good to see and ex-FLDS say so much truth. I did check out your blog. It was amazing, you said, out of what I read, just how it is and was. “Girls escape, Boys are kicked out” L.O.L. Soooo true. Thanks, I will refer more people to it.
Its great to see people that love the truth for truths sake.
I apologize if I offended ya, I was just joking. It’s none of my business anyway. I just thought it was cool to see your name as Moroni told me about it.
FLDS Mother- I would love to post a full article from you if you email it to me. Or correct me if you see a mistake
They have put up quite a bit on FLDStruth.org
pligchild- Thanks for the offer. I wouldn’t know what to write. I only write what I feel, and know. The best place for the truth is http://www.FLDSTruth.org as you said.
pligchild- Thanks for your vote of confidence. I just say and write what I feel deep in my heart to be the truth. But the best place for anyone to go for the truth is http://www.FLDSTruth.org
To “An FLDS Mother” – I’m not FLDS nor LDS…I’m a Baptist. But I have a terrible burden about this situation, and seemingly no one to talk to about it! Why aren’t people devastated about this all over the country?! I can’t imagine the government taking my 3 kids…but actually I can. Soon it won’t be for polygamy or whatever this witch hunt is about. It will be for anyone who calls on the name of Jesus. Is there any way to get in touch with one woman who is going through this? I want to let someone know that even though our doctrines are different, people are praying for them and hurting for them. Thanks, April in Arizona
The FLDS need people to care, need people to do something more than blog, our nation is so virtual by plan!! What does all this blogging do? I love your sentiments, this travesty will not be fixed until people actually get out of their PC armchairs and go out, demonstrate, I believe everyone should go to Texas and demonstrate, shut down businesses, boycott any Texas tourism, something has to make a difference.
What would help is to go after these thugs in court. They can be held accountiable. And I do not mean using a lawyer. I for one would like to help some one or others who have not “sworn to hold the court above all others”, such as a lawyer. But someone who holds God above all others. Who serves one master. Any one can bring an action against a law breaking judge, anyone. This is the reason we have title 42 sec. 1983 and Quo Warranto actions. I guess my question would be, why do these parrents just sit back and put their trust in lawyers who drain their pockets? Why not use their money and do their own law research? There are people out there that will help you who have wone every case they have brought to the court system. They know the ins and outs. They understand law and have removed these renegade judges. When you stand before the Judgement seat of Christ who will you have represent you? No lawyer will do, you must stand on your own! Now is the time for learning to do just that.
What is your suggestion Greg? And how would we go about it?
I have a sister and several sister-in-laws involved. I personally know most of those ladies involved.
I don’t have an address to send anything to them, but when there is a ride going there, I send letters and as soon as we know the government wont stop things, I will be sending things to them as well. They are in need of things. It wasn’t reported, but last week the law came back in and took personal belongings. Like under clothing. What would they want with that???? I don’t know.
But if you want to say something to them, I would past it on to them. They had an email address on http://www.captivefldschildren.org/index.php
but I guess they removed it. There is an email address for Willie Jessop.
That might be a great way to let those sweet ladies know that there are people out there that care. Thanks April for your thoughts and concerns.
I had a thought, we need someone famous to do a fund raiser for the cause.
Greg… Where do we begin????
I just noticed that the FLDS have a song on their website
Here is the link:
Yes, that song is sooo very sweet. When you listen to it, just think of those poor, dear, innocent children, being riped out of their mothers arms, crying “Mother, Mother, I need you.” Think of those dear, sweet mothers, with empty aching arms, longing for their dear little ones.
Not only for the FLDS mothers…that song could apply to ANY mother who has lost her child! It is a beautiful song!!!
Please sign this petition!
I couldn’t agree more!
God bless ALL the children!
I’d like them to know that I care. God hears their cries to Him. Ask them how I can help. I’m already praying for them continually. If I can send them something or write letters of encouragement, that would be great. My email address is stephens.april@yahoo. com. If you could email me privately I’ll give you my home address.
I like “Not a Lost Boy”‘s suggestion about demonstrating. I’m a homesteader with a small farm and can’t go to Texas to demonstrate, but I sure wouldn’t mind organizing something in Tucson. If anyone reading this blog is here, please email me at the above address and let’s see what we can do!
I just had a thought…why was Connor sent to Scotland? Do you think the LDS higher-uppers didn’t want him here in the US, because he is so strongly against the raid on the YFZ ranch?
Um, what? I’m here in Scotland on vacation, of my own volition. There’s not a conspiracy behind every corner.
Maybe he’s referencing the myth that Benson was sent to Europe because his political views were bothersome… I’ve heard that so many times. Whenever I quote Benson on a political topic, I hear, “Well, ya know that the brethren disliked his politics so much that’s why they sent him to Europe.” Bogus…
That is exactly how I took wondering’s comment. I got a good chuckle out of it, rather than assume it was a serious conspiracy theory. 🙂
Thanks for standing up for these people. They are a polite, peaceful, spirit-filled people, just trying to do right by God. They deserve our moral support, our prayers, our petitions to the government, and our monetary support if we can (www dot captivefldschildren dot org).
: ) Sorry Connor, I did mean it as a tease. I just shouldn’t have been critical in my teasing. I, too, am grateful for what you have done and are doing.
Sorry Connor, I did mean it as a tease. I just shouldn’t have been critical in my teasing.
Ah, well there it is… Jeff explained what I did not see, but now that it’s been clarified for my thick head, I like your allusion to the Benson thing.
I have to disagree with the part of your comment that refers to the FLDS as being a collectively polite, peaceful, and spirit-filled people. Just as I am fighting the policy that collectively targets them all as abusers, so too do I oppose the notion that they are all peaceful, righteous people. I do think there has been some abuse, as well as some power-grabbing by Warren and some of his buddies. Since media reports and conflicting testimonies of members past and present are all I can rely upon, I cannot say with any certainty.
Mormons, for examples, are mostly God-fearing, peace-loving saints trying to live Christian lives. I think that the collectivist idea of lumping an entire group together, however, is unfair—whether for good or for bad. In other words, it’s a slight stretch to say that all Mormons are good followers of Christ.
We’re imperfect people, and that’s why I feel it’s wrong to identify a group with a characteristic. We are individuals, and regardless of whatever affiliation(s) we assume, we should not be targeted or revered based on that association.
My apologies if I’m making a mountain out of a molehill, but I did want to clarify that I think it’s wrong to regard every single person in a group—whether positively or negatively—as having the same trait.
I agree with your anti-collectivist sentiments. I always treat individuals as exactly that: individuals. They deserve nothing less. No one should get a free pass (or a pre-conceived condemnation) based on their religion or any other association they may have. I am LDS and I know plenty of LDS members who do not make me proud of my fellow church members.
I also know, personally, ex-members of the FLDS church–some who belong to no church, and some who have joined the LDS church. These people I know have only good things to say about their former church. They left on their own, and hold no bad feelings toward the FLDS church, and they maintain their relationships with their family members who remain FLDS.
I also know members of other fundamentalist Mormon groups and can say I have only ever felt a spirit of peace and love amidst them. I believe them to be fine examples of saints of the Lord.
I do not believe that the doctrines or practices of the FLDS church are such that they promote abuse or law-breaking. I believe you will find people in every church, including in my own LDS congregation, who will use warped interpretation of religion to justify their own activities.
However, as a rule, I do believe the FLDS are a polite, peaceful, kind, and spirit filled people. Of course there are exceptions. But the entire religion should not be judged by exceptions. We would not be happy if the LDS church’s reputation or every Mormon’s personal reputation were to be influenced by the fact that some LDS people have done very bad things (think Mark Hoffman, Ted Bundy, or even the LDS missionaries recently photographed themselves vandalizing a Catholic shrine).
Connor, as you likely know, Pres. Hinckley was fond of talking about how the LDS people as a whole are hard-working, industrious, kind hearted, generous people. Would you suppose Pres. Hinckley was making broad collectivist statements? I offered my comments in the same spirit as Pres. Hinckley offered similar comments about his/our own LDS people.
Also, was Elder Cook was being rather “collectivist” when he recently stated that “Church members do not live in isolated compounds, arrange marriages, dress in old-fashioned clothing or wear unusual hairstyles”?
Hmmm. I know I’ve seen quite a few weird hairstyles in my own ward. Someone should alert the first presidency! 🙂 I’ve also known a few LDS members who have “strongly favored” their children marrying a certain person. As for old fashioned clothing? I’m sure there are more than just the old ladies of my ward who wear the same things they wore 80 years ago. I even know some LDS people who own their own “isolated compounds”! (Seriously–though, like the FLDS in Texas, they usually refer to them as “ranches” rather than the loaded word “compund”.)
Elder Cook, continuing his collectivist statement, also said: “Rather, they are participating members of the communities in which they live throughout the world, get married at the average age of 23 and are well educated.”
I know some LDS members who are complete deadbeats. They barely attend church or go to work, let alone being “participating members of the[ir] communities.” And, it is also quite collectivist to say LDS are “well educated”. My wife was 18 and I was 22 when we married. I knew a couple in one of my old wards who married at 17 (both of them).
So, if my statements about the FLDS–as a people and as a religion–being a spirit filled people are collectivist, then so were Elder Cook and Pres. Hinckley, right?
My first reaction to the quotes is to think of a parent talking about his/her children to others. You’re more likely to hear “they’re such good kids!” or “they’re hard-working students!” when a detailed analysis of their (imperfect) lives is sure to reveal them not living up to that standard.
So I kind of see this parent-like thing going on with our leaders, where in their “collectivist” comments on the members as a whole they encourage us to continue to strive for that ideal/standard that they’re setting.
Not sure if I’m on the mark with this one, but again, it’s what first comes to mind.
Of course, your analysis is a good one. I just maintain that if Elder Cook or Pres. Hinckley can brag about their “kids” or their LDS associates, that I feel justified in bragging about my friends who are either current or former FLDS and/or Fundamentalists who are exemplary Saints.
We should all strive to live Christ like lives, even though some in our midst choose to do otherwise, or stumble and need a helping hand back to their feet. We should all show the love and light of Christ in all we do. I can say without any reservation that every person I know who is a former or current fundamentalist Mormon can be said to be striving to live a Christ-like life.
I believe we are bound to honor the 11th article of faith and, as we learn in the final article of faith, we should also seek to find the good in all people who try to live according to their understanding of God’s requirements for mankind. Those I know from fundamentalist backgrounds would agree with me on this, also.
I just re-read my second-to-last comment. I mentioned the ages my wife and I married at and some other people who married younger than the average age that Elder Cook touted, but I put it in the wrong spot, after the comment about education. Whoops. So much for proof reading. Perhaps I should pursue another degree, since the first one didn’t seem to do the trick 🙂
Yes Ronald- we agree. We are all striving to know who God is and how to become like him. I’m sure grateful you know the ones that have left that are not bitter. I have brothers that have left. They chose to leave. They are not bitter. They moved away so that they could get away from the bitter ones. You know, we cant talk bad about anyone, if we truly are trying to become like our Heavenly Father. We forgive all men, and let God be the judge.
Yes, there have been some who have done wrongs in our religion. But show me a religion where all the people are living perfect, besides Enoch’s people.
When someone is found out doing a wrong, they are asked to repent. If they do not, they are asked to leave. They don’t have to. But the family is taken away and most of the time, given to another man. The wife(wives) and children, have a choice to go with him or stay. I know of some who have stayed with the man. So……that was her choice. If the man has done a crime, he is turn over to the law to be handled. We don’t allow abuse of any kind. We are taught to train in love.
As for our “Weird” hair styles, the Lord says we should adorn our selves with our hair. And as for the clothes, I wear what I wear because I like it. It covers my body. We are taught to keep our bodies covered. I would not do this except I know it is right. I feel it is right. No one has made me do any thing I didn’t want to.
I have as much or more freedom that any female in the “outside” world. I can do what ever I chose, but I also know right from wrong. When you look at the reports and videos of these ladies, you can see, they look like pure ladies.
So, instead of just talk, what can be done?????
Its been over a month now….these children need their mothers, and they need them.
If you have any ideas, pleas speak out.
If you haven’t checked out Captive FLDS children lately, you need to http://www.captivefldschildren.org/Music.php
there is some new songs on there.
Thanks eveyone for your support.
I plagerized your contacts and posted them on my blog http://freetechildrenaction.blogspot.com/
I hope that is ok. (If it’s not, please let me know)
It seems that so many people want to know what they can do, and are having a hard time finding the information easily.
I’m also linking to you. (Let me know about that too)
This post has been updated with Senator Hatch’s reply.
Good Job Connor, my mom and i have been following up on the FLDS. I hope they give them back to their mother. I know how it is to have something unjust happened to a child. I was 5 when i was taken from my parents for something my parents SUPPOSEDLY did. I spent 48 hours in child protective services. And since then i freak out when a cop comes by. It severely traumitize kids being ripped from their mother and i was only way from my mom for 48 hours i cant imagine 30 days. I have and will pray that the children get back with their mother.
Following up on comments 18-21, the AP is reporting about the age dispute taking place. CPS apparently is getting their numbers mixed up and refusing to recognizing valid government-issued certificates showing the adults’ age.
Thank you for your kind words and comments. I have been reading the various new official FLDS websites (all three of them) and have referred many friends and associates to them for “the rest of the story.”
I should clarify that I do not find anything “weird” about your manner of dress or hair-stylings. In fact, they are quite similar to those chosen by women in other conservative Christian denominations. I find nothing at all weird about them. The world, on the other hand, has plenty of weird hair and clothing choices that I would never choose for myself nor want my children to choose. For me and my family, we have made conservative choices in hair and clothing styles as well.
Do you suppose this case will eventually come up as a “proof” of why the nation “needs REAL ID”? Apparently old fashioned IDs like birth certificates and drivers licenses just don’t cut it anymore.
Senator Hatch’s reply reminds me of a certain US president’s words to the Prophet Joseph.
“Your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you.”
Methinks our nation’s leaders are afraid (too selfish) to stand up for truth and righteousness.
Courts have started, I am hoping and praying that all of the children get to go home with their mothers. This is messed up, what happened to religion and government stays seperate?
It will be good for the children to go back with their mothers it is what they need the most. They maybe be nervous around cops and think are we going back every time they see one. But i am hoping it stops after they get home and no more of this crap happens again to them.
After reading all of this I have to weigh in on a lot of what you’ve all been writing. First of all I want to say that I AM a mother who had my child removed from me for several months even though I had never abused him. It was horrible and I hated it. I was also deeply grateful that someone cared enough for my son’s welfare to do whatever was necessary to protect him. With that in mind I say, SHAME ON YOU! Instead of whining about how horrible this is you should be giving the state all the help it needs to determine just who may or may not have actually participated in the abuse of those children. Honestly, is there ANY excuse for a mother NOT to be able to say, “This child, this child and this child is mine. This man is their father?” No, it isn’t. Yet these mothers did not do so when they had the chance. Why? I don’t care what you believe is religiously right or not, if you’re living in a country and state you have an obligation to follow their laws. If these young girls were being “spiritually” married under the legal age, regardless of the ages of the “husband” it is child abuse and rape. The state needed to remove these children in order to protect them while they determined the veracity of the suspected abuse. As a parent you should be grateful that someone is willing to do as much for your child and helping them sort things out as quickly as possible. I am well aware that Child Protective Services are not always right and that individuals within it can be on power trips, but as a whole I think these people are trying to do the best they can for these children. I got my son back after the agency that removed him was able to determine that I was not a threat to him. I was allowed unlimited visitation with him (which was against that agency’s policy) because I made it clear from the start that my son’s welfare was more important to me than my own feelings and desire to have him with me. My son is a grown man now, a wonderful father, and he was NOT harmed by his short stay in protective custody. I sincerely hope that any parents who have not harmed their children will get them back, but since I believe that the lack of education many of the “homeschooled” children demonstrate is proof of abuse, I think that there will be fewer of them than the FLDS would have us believe. I firmly believe that at a minimum there should be yearly testing of these kids to prove that they’re being given the minimum standard of education. In a nutshell, those children have rights too, and their rights trump any “religious” rights that you want to cry about. Practice your religion all you want, but don’t allow it to harm your children.
Whoa Ms. Loos – Thanks for “weighing in” and it is interesting that you are getting “after” the FLDS for what the CPS continues to say they did or didn’t do and yet, from everything that has come up in or out of court it looks like CPS is the one continously changing their own “lies”.
For some reason – you and many others seem think that the FLDS mothers and children are stupid, dumb, uneducated! All the accusations against them by CPS and others are only that – accusations. Whenever it has come up in court and from what we are seeing is that it is CPS that has lied from the get go. These FLDS parents have been providing birth certificates for their children from the beginning – and CPS has chosen to ignore or disbelieve state issued documents.
So before you jump on the “anti” FLDS bandwagon consider that for the FLDS “EVERYTHING” they say or don’t say is being misconstrued and twisted against them by the CPS whose proven lies you are inclined to believe.
And by the by – I have a high school diploma and 1 year college towards a (gasp) teaching certificate. Right now, we have a 13 year old just finishing 8th grade, a 15 year old finishing 9th grade, and a 16 finished with high-school about to get her GED diploma. ALL homeschooled! Go figure! They have all been state “tested” and shown above-average in their scores!
I think you need do a little studying into the FLDS before believing every lie you read or hear about them! And for your info – the helpful guidelines given by the CPS stated that the FLDS childrens’ educational intelligence level was higher that the norm!
Oh and check out GritsforBreakfast’s blog very interesting info on more CPS lies.
SHAME ON YOU for believing CPS and media lies. Go to the people who KNOW the truth. The FLDS.
Check out FLDS websites. Learn the truth before you judge us.
We aren’t what CPS , media and ex-members say we are. We have been speaking out, but only the honest in heart will look and listen for the truth.
Even though the intitial call is apparently a hoax; even though the number of underaged pregnancies are far lower than the state has indicated, the fact is that there ARE underage “marriages” and pregnancies and that you members of FLDS knew it was going on. Underage pregnancy and marriage IS child abuse. At the very minimum it is unhealthy for a girl to start giving birth at young ages. I was told by my gynecologist when I was pregnant with my first child that biologically a woman should be not less that 21 and preferably 25 years of age before becoming pregnant. Wrap it any way you want, if you people are marrying off and impregnating these girls you are being abusive. I don’t care what your prophet told you, God will NOT bless anyone for such actions. As someone who was a fit mother, and had my child removed from my care anyway, I still say that the state has done the right thing. The important issue here is the safety of the children, not your hurt pride that someone has questioned the madates of your prophets. And just what do you have to say about the many reports of men and young men who’ve been thrown out of the compound, of the women courageous enough to try and leave with their children to save them from what THEY claim was abuse? Are they all lying too? An amazing amount of people are lying, aren’t they, but I’m sure we can believe every word that comes from the FLDS because they would NEVER lie or evade the truth. (By the way, I got my child back. I am convinced that it was because I proved by my actions and uncomplaining cooperation with the authorities that I cared more for my child’s well being than anything else in this world. You think this system is bad, try dealing with England’s CPS like I did. Parents have NO rights. I’m not complaining about that because in my mind, it’s all about the kids. Parents, religion, and personal opinions don’t matter, just the safety and well being of the children.)
Have you EVER BEEN in child protective services????
I have, want to know my experience in this what you so call GREAT service? I was four or five and my sister was 3, and we were tooken. We stayed there and my sister cried all night cause she wanted our mom. They put me in a regular bed and put my sister in a CRIB ok. My sister was crying so they warmed a bottle up and shoved it in my sister’s mouth. My sister NEVER had a bottle. I Tried to calm her down and tried to be the older sister and take care of my sister. We got to visit my mom and the SHOVED US out of the room. My sister had an ear infection. They DIDN’T give her, her medicine. GUESS WHAT HAPPENED MY SISTER’S EAR DRUM RUPTURED. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW BAD THAT HURTS, AND YOU SAY ITS FOR THE BEST OF OUR CHILDREN. PLEASE TELL ME HOW? IF THEY CANT GIVE THEM THEIR MEDS FOR AN INFECTION HOW IS THAT IN THE BEST INTEREST? When we got back with our mom we had LICE! LICE, WE NEVER HAD LICE. OH AND THEY TRIED KEEPING THE CLOTHES WE WORE OVER THERE, MY MOM MADE THEM GIVE OUR CLOTHES BACK BECAUSE THE CLOTHES THEY GAVE US TO WEAR HAD HOLES AND EVERYTHING.
THANKS TO THEIR SUPPOSEDLY CARE! MY SISTER AND I ARE AFRAID OF COPS. TO THE POINT THAT MY SISTER WOULDNT NOT TALK TO THEM WHEN CHILD CARE CALLED THE CPS WHEN ONE OF THEIR KIDS THROUGH A TOY AT MY SISTER WHICH CAUSED HER BRUISE ON HER CHEECK. THEY HAD TO GET ONE OF THE MILITARY POLICE TO TALK TO HER. AND SHE TOLD THEM WHAT HAPPENED.
YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE IN CPS CARE. SO DONT EVEN SAY CPS IS GREAT WHEN YOU NEVER BEEN IN CPS CARE.
AND JUST CAUSE SOMEONE IS HOMESCHOOLED DOESNT MEAN THEY ARE UNEDUCATED. OK I WAS HOMESCHOOLED AND HAVE GONE TO A PUBLIC SCHOOL AND I CAN PERSONALLY TELL YOU I HAVE LEARNED MORE IN HOMESCHOOL THAN A PUBLIC SCHOOL COULD EVER TEACH. WHAT IS SAD IS IF THEY PUT THEM IN PUBLIC SCHOOL THE CHILDREN WILL BE BORED CAUSE THEY WILL BE SO AHEAD IN SCHOOL.
THIS IS A WITCH HUNT! WHATS NEXT ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT IMMUNIZING THEIR CHILDREN ARE ABUSING THEIR CHILDREN.
Yes, I have been in CPS care, in two different families, as a matter of fact. Unfortunately, I wasn’t kept in CPS care but was sent home to a father who beat me with a belt until I had bleeding welts. I also happen to know EXACTLY how bad the pain of a ruptured eardrum is — the last time it happened to me I was 12 years old and I remember it vividly. It’s too bad that you had a bad experience, but that does not make every foster home an evil place, nor does it make the entire CPS system evil. As for homeschooling, I homeschooled my son through high school because he was being teased and tormented in school. He went on to ace his GEDs on his very first try. Now how many of the FLDS kids could do the same? I am not against homeschooling — I’m against selective schooling. As long as those kids know the basics of reality — such as the fact that there isn’t a shred of evidence that Native Americans are of Hebrew descent, much less that they and blacks are “cursed and unclean”, then I have no problem. If they are that well educated, then regular testing will prove it. However, when the FLDS dump their boys and young men in our society with NO practical skills to get them by, then once again I must cry abuse. And saying that the boys wouldn’t go to school is just balony. Maybe they should try excommunicating them at 10 years old, then, or whatever age they supposedly quit going to school. Oh, and ranting with the caps lock on doesn’t make your arguments any more valid. You have issues with CPS, I can understand that — I do myself. I’ve seen CPS in my state go after mothers who’ve worked hard to be good parents and ignore terrible parents because the children had issues that daunted them. (One boy I knew would poop his pants at 13 and sit in it and he painted the bathroom of his foster home with poop. So CPS left him with his seriously unbalanced mother.) However, I will say it again — impregnanting underage girls is child abuse of the worst kind. This practice is more than enough reason to remove the children until that charge is fully examined. Because of the excessively insular nature of the compound, there really isn’t any other way to protect these at-risk children until the offenders are found out and dealt with. And since all the members of the compound had to know it was going on, they are all accomplices. They put their religious beliefs above the welfare of the young girls in the compound. I’m sorry, but that’s simply wrong. The issue, as I’ve said over and over again, is the welfare of the children. Religion does NOT trump child safety. The younger a girl gets pregnant, the more at risk she is. And if it’s so evil to remove these children and place them in foster care, then why isn’t it evil to remove women and children from their “husband” and father and give them to another man simply because the original man has been excommunicated? A little hypocritical, aren’t we?
Oh, but let me add, I agree completely that if the state has ignored valid birth certificates and drivers lisences as evidence of age, without some real indication of fraud, that they have overstepped their bounds grossly and the individuals responsible should be disciplined or fired from their positions. However, I don’t know what kind of documentation has been offered at all, simply that the FLDS are now claiming that they offered documents to prove ages. Since I read an article where one woman was claiming she couldn’t answer the questions about her name and her children’s names because legally her name was one name but she answered to another, I have to wonder once again at the veracity of the claims of documentation. How hard is it to say, I was born Mary Smith but I go by Sarah Jessop? Or whatever. Once again, I am not convinced. I believe that FLDS is scrambling to cover their practice of marrying off underaged women and I believe anyone who knows of this behavior and ignores it is an abomination before God. “If any cause harm to come to these little ones it would be better that a millstone were tied around their neck and they be thrown into the sea.” Sound familiar?
IF there is child abuse in this then WHY has no one been arrested? they can’t prove it!!!!!! And Homeschooling IS selective schooling. YOU decide what your child learns, so that is selective learning. Most of those cildren are well educated. Just because they learn differntly than you and i who are we to judge. So far everything the CPS have said are lies. What about the fact that the MENTAL HEALTH workers checked the children out and stated that there was NO CHILD ABUSE cause if their was they would be acting completely different. SINCE that is what THEY SAID CPS didnt like the fact that was their reports so they fired them two weeks later. ” they were being to compassioned”
they should be with there mothers, since there is NO EVIDENCE showing ABUSE.
Instead why dont you focus on the ones who are abusing 14 to 17 year olds that are getting away with it and i can think of one guy right now. MARK BARNWELL JR he has a bunch of 14 to 17 year olds on his myspace page who he talks to. AND guess what it is against his probabtion he already beat and raped 3 girls. Who knows if there is a 4 the state is too busy for ones who have NO EVIDENCE of abusing their kids.
You’ve stated you’re opinion at length and rather completely. You seem to have a grudge against the FLDS, and possibly anyone who would pass on their faith to their children. Thanks for your opinion. I think we’d all agree that we’d like you to express it at length on another forum. Civil rights have been trampled, media has been fed or is feeding lies about the victims, and you’re on their side. I don’t care to read any more of what you think.
Thanks for exercising your first amendment rights…
So April, it’s okay to exercise my first ammendment rights here if I agree with you, but not if I don’t? What ever happened to an exchange of ideas? Also, I don’t actually have a grudge against the FLDS — I do, however, feel very strongly about marrying off and impregnating underage women. Child abuse is an issue I am passionate about because I’ve experienced it and seen it directed at children I love.
Katherine, I don’t think CPS is the one to investigate the man you are referring to since he is not these girls’ parent. I’m optimistic that the proper authorities will be attempting to catch and incarcerate this man, since he already has convictions. However, his prosecution or lack of it doesn’t really have a bearing on the FLDS situation.
As for proving child abuse, they have 400+ children they are evaluating — if they came forward right away with whatever evidence they may have gathered they would be blasted for not taking enough time for a proper evaluation. In short, there will always be complaints about CPS’ behavior because it is always a traumatic and painful experience when they get involved. I will stand by my primary statement though — what is important is making sure that the children have been and will be in a safe environment. I sincerely expect most of the children to be returned home. I sincerely hope that the practice of underage “spiritual” marriages will be ended.
your right he isnt one of the parents, its people like him they should be going after. not innocent people. And i agree with April it is obvious you have a grudge against FLDS.
I am so glad they are getting their children back soon. CPS coudlnt prove any type of abuse going on.
Believe it or not, Katherine, I’m glad they’re getting their kids back too. I suspect that any pregnant underage girls will be kept, (if there are any), but I was never claiming that they children should be permantly removed from their homes. I simply believe that it is better to err on behalf of the safety of children than it is to err on behalf of the sanctity of the family unit. I STILL hope that any and all perpetrators of underage marriages is prosecuted and that the practice is finally eliminated.
YOU had a bad experience with CPS which colors your opinions. I had a bad experience the opposite way which colors mine. (Specifically, my brother and sister and I were returned to our physically abusive father and more beatings and trauma. My sister committed suicide about 10 years ago. I battle debilitating depression. My brother is a younger version of my father. Keeping our family together in NO WAY helped any of us.) However, as always, my concern is for the well being of the children. I always expected that most of the children would go back to their families.
A follow-up article to the one posted in comment #103 can be found here, where the reader will learn of additional failure on the part of Texas to get their facts straight.
This post has been updated w/ Senator Bennett’s letter, which I received today.
I just finished reading the book Escape by Carolyn Jessop. It is a compelling read and a must read before opinions are set in stone. I highly recommend it. It is the first book I have read in one sitting in decades. Sometimes paradigm shifts are very valuable in gaining understanding. I hope you will take the opportunity to read it.
A special petition is developed in order to help the families whose children have been taken away due to falsified accusation by the CPS (Child Protective Services) employees. As more and more families become victims of false accusations against them, we believe that such a petition is necessary in order bring justice in the country. In order to have working material, social service employees need more children to show the government that they need money. Following that goal, they falsify the accusations and take children from normal families. This may happen to any family. The petition will require the corrections in the law so that families and their children can be protected from the crime committed by social service employees.